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How common are "welfare bums"?

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rabidmonkey4262
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24 Nov 2012, 9:33 am

mds_02 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Then you believe that need or claimed need justifies the theft of property?

ruveyn


It's not theft. Rather, it's an agreement that part of the cost of living in a society that offers the opportunities that our society does is that the majority who do relatively well each kick in a small amount so that the minority who can't manage aren't starving in the street.


Part of living in a human society is that you have to make sacrifices. This is what every evolutionary biologist knows. This is also what every anthropologist knows. Mandatory altruism is inherent in group living. If you think it's "theft" and you don't like it, then the rest of society is just going to kick you out.


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ruveyn
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24 Nov 2012, 9:48 am

rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Then you believe that need or claimed need justifies the theft of property?

ruveyn


It's not theft. Rather, it's an agreement that part of the cost of living in a society that offers the opportunities that our society does is that the majority who do relatively well each kick in a small amount so that the minority who can't manage aren't starving in the street.


Part of living in a human society is that you have to make sacrifices. This is what every evolutionary biologist knows. This is also what every anthropologist knows. Mandatory altruism is inherent in group living. If you think it's "theft" and you don't like it, then the rest of society is just going to kick you out.


It IS theft, but I am outgunned and outnumbered. Do not let anyone fool you. Might DOES make right.

ruveyn



androbot2084
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24 Nov 2012, 9:49 am

So how is Fidel Castro land reform not Kosher?



ruveyn
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24 Nov 2012, 9:52 am

androbot2084 wrote:
So how is Fidel Castro land reform not Kosher?


The land was taken by force and contrary to law. Might make right apperently.

If a capitalist steals your land you call it bad. If a commie steals your land you call it THe Will of the Proletariat.

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ruveyn
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24 Nov 2012, 9:53 am

In the U.S. the true "welfare bums" are the mega-corps which get taxpayer subsidy. The ideal of Crony Capitalism: socialize losses and privatize profits.

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rabidmonkey4262
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24 Nov 2012, 9:54 am

ruveyn wrote:
rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Then you believe that need or claimed need justifies the theft of property?

ruveyn


It's not theft. Rather, it's an agreement that part of the cost of living in a society that offers the opportunities that our society does is that the majority who do relatively well each kick in a small amount so that the minority who can't manage aren't starving in the street.


Part of living in a human society is that you have to make sacrifices. This is what every evolutionary biologist knows. This is also what every anthropologist knows. Mandatory altruism is inherent in group living. If you think it's "theft" and you don't like it, then the rest of society is just going to kick you out.


It IS theft, but I am outgunned and outnumbered. Do not let anyone fool you. Might DOES make right.

ruveyn


Well if that's your view, have fun living alone. You have forgotten what it means to be a social primate. Social animals make sacrifices to help their group. This is why humans have evolved as a social species. You have forgotten what even vampire bats have figured out.


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24 Nov 2012, 9:55 am

rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
If you think it's "theft" and you don't like it, then the rest of society is just going to kick you out.


Or you get involved in hardline libertarian movements.



ruveyn
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24 Nov 2012, 9:55 am

rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Then you believe that need or claimed need justifies the theft of property?

ruveyn


It's not theft. Rather, it's an agreement that part of the cost of living in a society that offers the opportunities that our society does is that the majority who do relatively well each kick in a small amount so that the minority who can't manage aren't starving in the street.


Part of living in a human society is that you have to make sacrifices. This is what every evolutionary biologist knows. This is also what every anthropologist knows. Mandatory altruism is inherent in group living. If you think it's "theft" and you don't like it, then the rest of society is just going to kick you out.


It IS theft, but I am outgunned and outnumbered. Do not let anyone fool you. Might DOES make right.

ruveyn


Well if that's your view, have fun living alone. You have forgotten what it means to be a social primate. Social animals make sacrifices to help their group. This is why humans have evolved as a social species. You have forgotten what even vampire bats have figured out.


I am not hermit and I never was. And I do lots of volunteer work. But I still know theft when I see it.

ruveyn



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24 Nov 2012, 10:04 am

ruveyn wrote:
rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Then you believe that need or claimed need justifies the theft of property?

ruveyn


It's not theft. Rather, it's an agreement that part of the cost of living in a society that offers the opportunities that our society does is that the majority who do relatively well each kick in a small amount so that the minority who can't manage aren't starving in the street.


Part of living in a human society is that you have to make sacrifices. This is what every evolutionary biologist knows. This is also what every anthropologist knows. Mandatory altruism is inherent in group living. If you think it's "theft" and you don't like it, then the rest of society is just going to kick you out.


It IS theft, but I am outgunned and outnumbered. Do not let anyone fool you. Might DOES make right.

ruveyn


Well if that's your view, have fun living alone. You have forgotten what it means to be a social primate. Social animals make sacrifices to help their group. This is why humans have evolved as a social species. You have forgotten what even vampire bats have figured out.


I am not hermit and I never was. And I do lots of volunteer work. But I still know theft when I see it.

ruveyn


I think you just gave me a great example of cognitive dissonance. A society is only as strong as the weakest member. Forcing greedy people to stop their immoral behavior is essential to our survival.



adb
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24 Nov 2012, 10:09 am

rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
rabidmonkey4262 wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Then you believe that need or claimed need justifies the theft of property?

ruveyn


It's not theft. Rather, it's an agreement that part of the cost of living in a society that offers the opportunities that our society does is that the majority who do relatively well each kick in a small amount so that the minority who can't manage aren't starving in the street.


Part of living in a human society is that you have to make sacrifices. This is what every evolutionary biologist knows. This is also what every anthropologist knows. Mandatory altruism is inherent in group living. If you think it's "theft" and you don't like it, then the rest of society is just going to kick you out.


It IS theft, but I am outgunned and outnumbered. Do not let anyone fool you. Might DOES make right.

ruveyn


Well if that's your view, have fun living alone. You have forgotten what it means to be a social primate. Social animals make sacrifices to help their group. This is why humans have evolved as a social species. You have forgotten what even vampire bats have figured out.

Whether or not you believe that "mandatory altruism" is necessary, it doesn't change the fact that it is taking property away from someone against his or her will. That is the definition of theft. By denying it's theft, you are simply justifying the means to attain your desired end.

Vampire bats don't have property or wealth accumulation and there is no social order that forcefully takes from those who have and gives to those who have not. It's not a valid comparison.



androbot2084
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24 Nov 2012, 10:10 am

Under Kosher laws land is a free eternal entitlement given by lottery without any respect to the wealthy. Under Kosher laws the wealthy are forbidden to own large tracts of land for more than 50 years. So does this mean Moses was a commie thief?



ruveyn
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24 Nov 2012, 10:17 am

androbot2084 wrote:
Under Kosher laws land is a free eternal entitlement given by lottery without any respect to the wealthy. Under Kosher laws the wealthy are forbidden to own large tracts of land for more than 50 years. So does this mean Moses was a commie thief?


Israel did two jubilees. After which G-D did nothing. So it goes.

The land belongs to whoever can work, hold it and control access to it or its products. Might makes Right.

ruveyn



ruveyn
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24 Nov 2012, 10:20 am

androbot2084 wrote:
Under Kosher laws land is a free eternal entitlement given by lottery without any respect to the wealthy. Under Kosher laws the wealthy are forbidden to own large tracts of land for more than 50 years. So does this mean Moses was a commie thief?


Kosher has to do with what is o.k. to be eaten. The proper term is ha'lachah (in hebrew that is literall "the way to go").

ruveyn



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24 Nov 2012, 10:45 am

I don't know if there is any way to determine the exact %, I just wonder how the hell the frauds even qualify for such things. When it seems many people who need that sort of help have a hard time getting any at all...it just doesn't make any sense. But I don't know welfare does not give one that terribly much money so it seems like a waste of time and energy to commit fraud to get it.....when there are probably other illegal ways to get quite a bit more money.


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AspieRogue

24 Nov 2012, 11:36 am

ruveyn wrote:
In the U.S. the true "welfare bums" are the mega-corps which get taxpayer subsidy. The ideal of Crony Capitalism: socialize losses and privatize profits.

ruveyn



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ruveyn
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24 Nov 2012, 1:09 pm

blue_moon666 wrote:

I think you just gave me a great example of cognitive dissonance. A society is only as strong as the weakest member. Forcing greedy people to stop their immoral behavior is essential to our survival.


A society is precisely as good as its brightest and best. The weakling and failures are dead weight on the rest of us.

As long as "greedy people" do not use force, threat of force or fraud to become rich, they are morally in the clear.

Apparently you believe that if A has a million dollars and B has only a thousand dollars that A has somehow wronged B. How would you like to live in a society where -everything- is equalized. Not only money and other assets, but talent, intelligence and ambition. We could call it the People's Republic of Mediocracy where the non-outstanding rule and the better folks are punished for being better.

ruveyn