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If America collapses would that be a good thing?

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ruveyn
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27 Nov 2012, 10:58 am

thewhitrbbit wrote:
I think it would be a bad thing, especially for the people in America.

What would we get? Communism, authoritarianism? I don't think it would be as free of a place as we live in now.


And without the tax burden of maintaining on oversize military establishment. We just can't afford it any more. The reason why Rome decline is primarily because it over extended itself beyond its economic capacity to maintain the boundaries. The U.S. is making a similar error by pretending to be World Cop (we really aren't and no one gave their consent to it anyway).

I think being a number two or three power would give us a chance to mend our economy.

ruveyn



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27 Nov 2012, 11:59 am

ruveyn wrote:
The reason why Rome decline is primarily because it over extended itself beyond its economic capacity to maintain the boundaries.
ruveyn


They had a pretty good run of things. The Western Empire was over-run by Germanic tribes, who may have been pushed out by invading Mongols.

The Eastern Empire eventually fell to the Turks.



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27 Nov 2012, 12:08 pm

Schneekugel wrote:
I dont think, that the USA really would collapse like other old empires. These others empires who really collapsed had always a heartland and a lots of colonies and not equal substates. Rome, Russia, Austria, France, England and so on... so when the land did loose power, it couldnt force the other lands to be part of it any longer.

But beside a small amount of people, thats not the case in the USA. There are different equal states who feel equal to another. So the USA can get poorer or richer, but i dont see a collapse with countries departing and so on.

I would compare it to russia. So russia even lost some countries but still russias heartland had so many citzen, had so much earth ressources and so much industry (not because there is that much industry/kilometer, but its just that huge) that sure it lost some power and so on, but still its one of the biggest/mightiest countries in the world.

So like russia, the USA will maybe decrease at military and industry, but for me theres a difference between "Not longer military global player No. 1." and "Collapse."


The US and the USSR have many parallels. So I don't think US will "collapse" without anything short of like, nuclear war or something. We will just become poor and broke gradually. We're not gonna wake up one morning "collapsed."



marshall
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27 Nov 2012, 1:33 pm

ruveyn wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
At the rate things are going it seems that the United States will be no more than a memory as the country is in bigger debt than ever wasting billions of dollars on war with money borrowed from China as China presses on forward. Soon America wont even be able to afford to defend itself leading onto an attack from outside sources.


China has a bigger problem than the U.S. The population of China is about 1.25 billion. About 300,000,00 Chinese live in a modern urban industrial technological state. That leaves 900,000,000 who live at abysmal third world states of poverty and backwardness. Unless the Chines powers that be can absorb a good part of the 900,000,000 into a more modern life style China will suffer from political instability.

As a proportion of the population our underclass is miniscule compare to that of China.

The U.S. will decline as a military power. Why? Because we can't afford it any more. We have eaten up the capital generated between the end of WW2 and 1970. Now we are eating our seed corn. This will come to a halt one way or another. The worst outcome is a total collapse of the economy with riots breaking out, especially in the big cities. The more likely outcome is a decline into a mediocre state of product and performance. Look at Britain. Britain did not collapse as a nation even though the Empire went bankrupt and perished because of two expensive wars. There will always be an England but Britania will no longer Rule the Waves.

If we were really serious about undoing China, we could do it by turning over the mantel of dominance to them., They expense would kill them in under ten years.

ruveyn


Chine is the big problem right now. The US and much of the rest of the world need a symbiotic trade relationship with China. The problem is the rest of the world is currently fearful of China becoming an equal partner because their culture is still a bit on the authoritarian side. Likewise, the party leaders in China are fearful of their own society becoming more broadly prosperous and westernized as it will probably mean a loss of power for them. Right now the Chinese government likes the current unsustainable trade-surplus because it constantly funnels American dollars to them which they can spend as they please. On both sides of this economic conflict (which is what it is) the powers-that-be are more interested in holding on to their current unsustainable hegemony than entering a more cooperative phase that will raise everyone up. When the global economy goes tits-up China will be f****d along with the rest of us because all their manufacturing will be rendered useless without sufficient demand for it.



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27 Nov 2012, 3:08 pm

It is more likely the world economy will contract, which means ruin.

America is the customer for the world, and starting from such a low basis, China has never had a recession. With only 25% of their population living in a drab version of the modern world, no unemployment, food stamps, 5% unemployment of the 25% could topple the country.

India has a population problem, they are running out of sidewalks for at least a quarter of their population to live on.

America may have Mexicans, and others from the area, but Europe has Islam and Africa moving in, from the south, and from the east. They are being Colonized.

Africa, South America, and Southeast Asia, are where most of the new population is growing, and they are too poor to support what they have. The recent rise in the price of grains, double, where they spend 90% of their income on food. Famine, migration, and the further spread of AIDs, Ebola, who knows what next, will further disrupt the global economy.

The problem with the Global Village, where the Greeks are the weak economy of Europe, they have wealth far beyond the better global norm.

Crime in the developed world is underground selling Chinese copies of American cigarettes, crime in Africa is killing a whole town with machetes, after mass rape, and eating them. Multi Culture That!

Somali pirates are in it for ransom, Southeastern Asian pirates for murdering everyone.

Plague, Famine, bands of murders, it is getting like the old days.



ruveyn
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27 Nov 2012, 3:36 pm

The U.S. probably will not collapse. Why? Our country is too big to conquers. It has a large population with a good mix of technical, scientific and business skills and we have good land so food is no problem for us (unless you consider the super abundance of food a problem) We have sufficient mineral and other natural wealth to have a good heathy state.

The U.S will contract, rather than collapse (for the reasons stated above) and we will become less powerful militarily. This may be a blessing in disguise. It is our manic pursuit of The Forever War since the end of the Korean War and our need of an Enemy in order to identify ourselves. This madness will lead to our ruination and the sooner we can get off this runaway train the better.

ruveyn



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27 Nov 2012, 3:50 pm

It would sure be rough on all those folks who get some form of financial aid from the government.Of course some people will blame them for the financial ruin we are in.
But only 6% goes to human services.



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27 Nov 2012, 3:55 pm

Misslizard wrote:
It would sure be rough on all those folks who get some form of financial aid from the government.Of course some people will blame them for the financial ruin we are in.
But only 6% goes to human services.


And the rest goes to 1. the military 2. corporate welfare 3. interest on our outrageous national debt and 4. for waste and inefficiency in government. And to damned little for the proper maintainance of our infrastructure. Our roads are crumbling and our bridges are collapsing and our pipe are leaking. Those poor sods getting food stamps are not the beneficiary of bloated government, but among the victims.


ruveyn



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27 Nov 2012, 4:30 pm

marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
At the rate things are going it seems that the United States will be no more than a memory as the country is in bigger debt than ever wasting billions of dollars on war with money borrowed from China as China presses on forward. Soon America wont even be able to afford to defend itself leading onto an attack from outside sources.


China has a bigger problem than the U.S. The population of China is about 1.25 billion. About 300,000,00 Chinese live in a modern urban industrial technological state. That leaves 900,000,000 who live at abysmal third world states of poverty and backwardness. Unless the Chines powers that be can absorb a good part of the 900,000,000 into a more modern life style China will suffer from political instability.

As a proportion of the population our underclass is miniscule compare to that of China.

The U.S. will decline as a military power. Why? Because we can't afford it any more. We have eaten up the capital generated between the end of WW2 and 1970. Now we are eating our seed corn. This will come to a halt one way or another. The worst outcome is a total collapse of the economy with riots breaking out, especially in the big cities. The more likely outcome is a decline into a mediocre state of product and performance. Look at Britain. Britain did not collapse as a nation even though the Empire went bankrupt and perished because of two expensive wars. There will always be an England but Britania will no longer Rule the Waves.

If we were really serious about undoing China, we could do it by turning over the mantel of dominance to them., They expense would kill them in under ten years.

ruveyn


Chine is the big problem right now. The US and much of the rest of the world need a symbiotic trade relationship with China. The problem is the rest of the world is currently fearful of China becoming an equal partner because their culture is still a bit on the authoritarian side. Likewise, the party leaders in China are fearful of their own society becoming more broadly prosperous and westernized as it will probably mean a loss of power for them. Right now the Chinese government likes the current unsustainable trade-surplus because it constantly funnels American dollars to them which they can spend as they please. On both sides of this economic conflict (which is what it is) the powers-that-be are more interested in holding on to their current unsustainable hegemony than entering a more cooperative phase that will raise everyone up. When the global economy goes tits-up China will be f**** along with the rest of us because all their manufacturing will be rendered useless without sufficient demand for it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1xlcMWoGJI[/youtube]


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androbot2084
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27 Nov 2012, 4:40 pm

Once America's liberty bell is fixed all the debt will be wiped out and America will have a fresh start and the economy will boom.



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27 Nov 2012, 4:55 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
At the rate things are going it seems that the United States will be no more than a memory as the country is in bigger debt than ever wasting billions of dollars on war with money borrowed from China as China presses on forward. Soon America wont even be able to afford to defend itself leading onto an attack from outside sources.


China has a bigger problem than the U.S. The population of China is about 1.25 billion. About 300,000,00 Chinese live in a modern urban industrial technological state. That leaves 900,000,000 who live at abysmal third world states of poverty and backwardness. Unless the Chines powers that be can absorb a good part of the 900,000,000 into a more modern life style China will suffer from political instability.

As a proportion of the population our underclass is miniscule compare to that of China.

The U.S. will decline as a military power. Why? Because we can't afford it any more. We have eaten up the capital generated between the end of WW2 and 1970. Now we are eating our seed corn. This will come to a halt one way or another. The worst outcome is a total collapse of the economy with riots breaking out, especially in the big cities. The more likely outcome is a decline into a mediocre state of product and performance. Look at Britain. Britain did not collapse as a nation even though the Empire went bankrupt and perished because of two expensive wars. There will always be an England but Britania will no longer Rule the Waves.

If we were really serious about undoing China, we could do it by turning over the mantel of dominance to them., They expense would kill them in under ten years.

ruveyn


Chine is the big problem right now. The US and much of the rest of the world need a symbiotic trade relationship with China. The problem is the rest of the world is currently fearful of China becoming an equal partner because their culture is still a bit on the authoritarian side. Likewise, the party leaders in China are fearful of their own society becoming more broadly prosperous and westernized as it will probably mean a loss of power for them. Right now the Chinese government likes the current unsustainable trade-surplus because it constantly funnels American dollars to them which they can spend as they please. On both sides of this economic conflict (which is what it is) the powers-that-be are more interested in holding on to their current unsustainable hegemony than entering a more cooperative phase that will raise everyone up. When the global economy goes tits-up China will be f**** along with the rest of us because all their manufacturing will be rendered useless without sufficient demand for it.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1xlcMWoGJI[/youtube]

Ummm... the problem isn't spending. The problem is we are not producing enough anymore. Our government willingly allowed our very own corporations to sell out American workers in the name of cheaper foreign wages and higher profits for executives. That is the true source of our debt. The Republican plan to kick the poor and elderly to the curb while increasing military spending will only bring our ultimate demise more quickly. Stupid stupid stupid.... Also, our private medical sector is a bubble that's sucking the government dry with it's grossly inflated prices. The military industrial complex is the other private rent-seeking leech that has firmly attached itself to the government tit. I've noticed all the rent-seeking private leeches have been quick to attack social programs like social security, medicare, and medicaid because they're scared out of their wits that their own corporate welfare check is going to be cut instead. That's why they all wanted Mitt Robme and Paul kill-the-poor Lyin' elected.



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27 Nov 2012, 5:53 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
The reason why Rome decline is primarily because it over extended itself beyond its economic capacity to maintain the boundaries.
ruveyn


They had a pretty good run of things. The Western Empire was over-run by Germanic tribes, who may have been pushed out by invading Mongols.

The Eastern Empire eventually fell to the Turks.


And this was allowed to happen because the Roman Empire split between the wealthy, commerce oriented east, and the poorer, more agrarian west. The Western Empire was much less able to sustain a powerful military force to defend their provinces. So local strong men were depended on to defend their home regions, and Barbarian invaders were granted the right to "rule in the name of the emperor" to keep up the fiction of Roman rule - thus slowly diminishing Roman imperial power. Something those idiots signing those secession petitions should consider.

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27 Nov 2012, 6:26 pm

Where are the bread and circuses??
Instead of gladiators we get dumb wrestling federations or whatever they are called.



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27 Nov 2012, 7:15 pm

We have the "circus" on a screen in our living rooms, with multiple shows running 24 hours a day.
As for bread, have you seen how fat Americans are getting? We're being kept well placated on a diet of cheap chemicals.



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27 Nov 2012, 7:32 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Where are the bread and circuses??
Instead of gladiators we get dumb wrestling federations or whatever they are called.


Hey! I love wrestling! :lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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27 Nov 2012, 11:55 pm

I think some people underestimate America. We have had some very dark times, but we still survived. When the United States was first formed, most people didn't expect the new nation to survive. It did. We survived a devastating civil war, a crippling depression and two world wars. Don't write our obituary just yet.