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techstepgenr8tion
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17 Dec 2012, 10:34 am

I just read an article on the Connecticut shooter and he fits a very common motif.

Whether you're Christian, New Age, Atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish - it doesn't matter, I think we can all agree that everything is interconnected and quite often such events are buildups of energy releasing.

While its ultimately the shooter's choice whether they do such things, its undeniable that many of these men have introversion and being 'wall flowers' in common. Society has a very clear message for shy/introverted men - go kill yourself, you've failed your roll. Society needs to understand that its incredibly risky to treat anyone in this way and it seems to be one of the prime and repeating sources of violent adult failure.



GiantHockeyFan
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17 Dec 2012, 1:28 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
While its ultimately the shooter's choice whether they do such things, its undeniable that many of these men have introversion and being 'wall flowers' in common. Society has a very clear message for shy/introverted men - go kill yourself, you've failed your roll. Society needs to understand that its incredibly risky to treat anyone in this way and it seems to be one of the prime and repeating sources of violent adult failure.


I don't want to get into this tragic topic but I can relate to what I have bolded above. I have been mentioned previously how as a teenager I was told exactly this. In fact, I had a person in my class say that everyone wanted me to drop dead and a round of cheers went up. I'm a mild mannered person but let's just say I'm glad no weapons were available to me as I had NOTHING to live for at the moment. While I understand how these types of incidents can happen I still can't understand why these killers would be so random. For years, I dreamed of torturing and killing those who wronged me but I NEVER EVER considered harming anyone who was innocent, especially the only demographic that has never harmed me at all.



Jacoby
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17 Dec 2012, 5:44 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Ive never seen evidence presented that the more high profile mass shooters (like columbine and VT) were in anyway delusional. The Columbine and VT shooters believed that no one liked them- which lead to depression-which lead to thoughts of suicide-which lead to thoughts of homocide. The reason they believed that no one liked them was because in reality no one liked them (there was nothing delusional about it). But in the long diaries by Cho, though he spewed his rage at the world for mistreating him- he did not claim that he thought that there was a literal conspiracy against him by everyone in the campus being lead by some ring leader. Atleast Ive never heard of that.

So most of the high profile shooters were not shooting imaginary demons.

I do recall one lesser known mass murderer who was something akin to what you're saying, and who told his story on TV (maybe 60 minutes). He walked through a public place and shot as many passerbyers as he could. He said was "convinced that everyone was out to get me" but he occasionally spared black people (he was white himself) because "for some reason I felt that black people were less against me than whites". But this guy flipped out one day and did it on the spur of the moment. He did not plan it months in advance like the columbine killers.


Columbine stands out as far as these killings since there was two shooters. I believe they actually had relatively normal social lives when compared to other killers. I think they are more of the exception when it comes to the phenomena of mass shooters.

Cho was definitely delusional tho, he compared himself to Jesus Christ and thought of he was going to influence generations of people. He didn't really have a real connection with anybody that he killed. He was a stalker too. His persecution seemed much more imagined than based in reality. I do not believe he was a rational person pushed to the edge and I don't believe the majority of these people are either.



simon_says
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17 Dec 2012, 10:10 pm

Most of the young ones seem mental. The older ones seem mean and bitter but there are exceptions with either group. Either way anger and alienation are usually in the mix.

Humiliated people are dangerous and as long as the rage is wiithin certain social norms they even sing songs about it and celebrate that kind of violence in other ways. Good luck curing the dark side of the male ego.



auntblabby
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17 Dec 2012, 10:23 pm

here's a simple question that doesn't necessarily lead to a simple answer- would the australian solution work here?



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17 Dec 2012, 10:47 pm

I think violence, like many other things has vogues. Bombings, Hijacking, Muggings, Chemicals, etc come in and out of popularity or appear with new technologies. Mass shootings are currently popular and I think one of the reinforcing influences is the shooter video game. Though I do not believe video games are the cause or only influence. Another influence is the glorification of the military and heavy police (ie SWAT). I could be wrong, but the way some shooters dress the part and carry out the massacre so mimics the games (or movies) it begs the comparison and suggests connection.

Its important to remember that mass shootings are in america only a very small fraction of the carnage. Any serious attempt to curb violence will actually have to focus on a wide range of violent behavior.

But something I find particularly disgusting and inhuman in the mass shootings is the feeling that some of these guys are going for High Scores. Hence the choice of the most defenseless targets.



naturalplastic
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18 Dec 2012, 12:14 am

auntblabby wrote:
here's a simple question that doesn't necessarily lead to a simple answer- would the australian solution work here?


What is it?



Jacoby
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18 Dec 2012, 12:15 am

Interesting thing I read today, there were 7 theaters with in 20 minutes of Colorado shooter James Holmes' home and only 1 banned concealed carry. Guess which theater that was.



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18 Dec 2012, 12:53 am

auntblabby wrote:
here's a simple question that doesn't necessarily lead to a simple answer- would the australian solution work here?

Going 180 degrees in the opposite direction would. Active shooters could easily be outgunned at least several million to one.


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auntblabby
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18 Dec 2012, 1:02 am

naturalplastic wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
here's a simple question that doesn't necessarily lead to a simple answer- would the australian solution work here?


What is it?

in response to the port arthur massacre, the australian gov't in 1996 enacted a semi-auto rifle/shotgun ban and buyback program, removing 600,000 such and destroying them. in 2003 they banned/bought back approx. 50,000 pistols greater than 9mm as well as those with barrels shorter than 4".
from an aussie:
"Restrictions on firearms are very strict since the Howard Government introduced laws after the Port Arthur Massacre in 1996.

Now any weapon (or anything that could be used as a weapon) is illegal. Most weapons (knives, swords and nunchucks) can only be used for display purposes and firearms must be kept at home in a locked safe bolted to the floor and separate from ammunition. You can obtain a licence to carry a firearm if it's needed for employment, sport or primary industry. It is never legal to carry ANY weapon for self defence
."

whatever the positives and negatives of such, i believe now is the time that something akin to this will be forced upon some americans. i don't believe it will pass the house in DC but in some states, something like the above will be passed. there will be more local anti-gun laws. and more lawsuits.



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18 Dec 2012, 1:11 am

i saw shortly after the news reports on the massacre in conn, some pro-gun person came on the air and expressed his opinion that if only the school principal was armed with an assault weapon, that she could've stopped the massacre. but i wonder, how reasonable is it to expect the average tom, dick and sherry with no military experience, to be 1]fool-proof proficient with a military-type weapon, and 2]be able to unobtrusively have such a weapon handy exactly when they need it? if all teachers should be armed and able to stop any interloper, how should this be enabled? should only ex-military personnel [presumably under arms when active-duty] be considered as candidate teachers? being that even cops have effed up and mishandled their weapons, how is a teacher [not to belittle our overworked and underpaid public servants] supposed to be any better, in this regard?



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18 Dec 2012, 1:30 am

There is no such thing as an assault weapon. That is a made up term by the gun-control lobby for scary looking black guns, they're not any different than any other semi-automatic rifle. There are plenty of people on here much more knowledgeable than myself on the subject of guns so they can correct me if I am wrong. There are assault rifles which the military uses but they have select fire and not commonly available to the public.

But to your point as to if you could count on a teacher or security guard or whomever to use a weapon in self defense, sure it is feasible. You don't need years of experience to handle a gun, my father taught me as a little boy. The real point isn't to come out on top of a gun fight tho but deterrence.



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18 Dec 2012, 1:46 am

the term "assault weapon" is a general term meant to indicate a rapid-fire [semi-auto] weapon with high-capacity magazine, no matter its color. if the perp in this case could only get a single-shot weapon and/or had strict limits on the ammo he could obtain, at least there would've been fewer deaths. how else can such mass murders be be made less likely to happen? either the weapons/ammo are to be somehow vastly reduced in number/supply/ease of access, or ALL schools/lions' share of public venues are going to have to arm themselves to the teeth with airport-style security. which will it be? i used to work in a gov't hospital with such security, and it was like working in a prison. would you want your children to have to attend a school under that kind of restrictive regimen? what kind of world are we making for our descendents? something's gotta give, sometime.



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18 Dec 2012, 3:36 am

auntblabby wrote:
i saw shortly after the news reports on the massacre in conn, some pro-gun person came on the air and expressed his opinion that if only the school principal was armed with an assault weapon, that she could've stopped the massacre. but i wonder, how reasonable is it to expect the average tom, dick and sherry with no military experience, to be 1]fool-proof proficient with a military-type weapon, and 2]be able to unobtrusively have such a weapon handy exactly when they need it? if all teachers should be armed and able to stop any interloper, how should this be enabled? should only ex-military personnel [presumably under arms when active-duty] be considered as candidate teachers? being that even cops have effed up and mishandled their weapons, how is a teacher [not to belittle our overworked and underpaid public servants] supposed to be any better, in this regard?

You could make someone go from clueless to competent to carry concealed in as little as 8-16 hours, and now there all kinds of really creative methods of concealed carry. Cops are notoriously sloppy when it comes to accountability because they know there there tends to be an unwritten lower standard the justice system holds them to. Concealed carriers have a near spotless record when it comes to negligent discharges compared to the cops.


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18 Dec 2012, 3:40 am

John_Browning wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
i saw shortly after the news reports on the massacre in conn, some pro-gun person came on the air and expressed his opinion that if only the school principal was armed with an assault weapon, that she could've stopped the massacre. but i wonder, how reasonable is it to expect the average tom, dick and sherry with no military experience, to be 1]fool-proof proficient with a military-type weapon, and 2]be able to unobtrusively have such a weapon handy exactly when they need it? if all teachers should be armed and able to stop any interloper, how should this be enabled? should only ex-military personnel [presumably under arms when active-duty] be considered as candidate teachers? being that even cops have effed up and mishandled their weapons, how is a teacher [not to belittle our overworked and underpaid public servants] supposed to be any better, in this regard?

You could make someone go from clueless to competent to carry concealed in as little as 8-16 hours, and now there all kinds of really creative methods of concealed carry. Cops are notoriously sloppy when it comes to accountability because they know there there tends to be an unwritten lower standard the justice system holds them to. Concealed carriers have a near spotless record when it comes to negligent discharges compared to the cops.


i have no doubt that most people can learn to shoot a handgun in that amount of time, but can they use it in a stressfull situation as a part of their duty without choking up with only that amount of training?
i doubt it, that is where the true test lies and short of it actually happening there is very few ways to know, none of them pleasant either.


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18 Dec 2012, 4:01 am

Oodain wrote:
i have no doubt that most people can learn to shoot a handgun in that amount of time, but can they use it in a stressfull situation as a part of their duty without choking up with only that amount of training? i doubt it, that is where the true test lies and short of it actually happening there is very few ways to know, none of them pleasant either.

QFT! it takes cops WEEKS of training [which they must refresh on a regular basis] to become weapons-proficient under stressful life-like [simulating colateral damage] conditions, not just under the calmer environment of the shooting range/gym. it is unrealistic to expect teachers to qualify under similar conditions, it will inevitably be watered down to the detriment of public safety.