Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Why should a man have to suffer painfully so we can go to he

Page 2 of 4 [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

22 Dec 2012, 1:13 am

Declension wrote:
Because possible worlds are accessible to the imagination. My imagination can access a world in which the physical laws are completely different (e.g. gravity repels). It can access a world in which there are no physical objects at all. But it cannot access a world in which "2 + 2 = 5".


Can you imagine 4D?



Declension
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,807

22 Dec 2012, 1:15 am

MCalavera wrote:
Declension wrote:
Because possible worlds are accessible to the imagination. My imagination can access a world in which the physical laws are completely different (e.g. gravity repels). It can access a world in which there are no physical objects at all. But it cannot access a world in which "2 + 2 = 5".


Can you imagine 4D?


Do you mean, can I imagine a world which has four spacial dimensions? Yes. I can't visualise it, but that's a different story.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

22 Dec 2012, 1:47 am

Ok, what is the difference between the two.

Because I'm having a hard time seeing it, to be honest.

Why is it you can imagine 4D but not 2 + 2 = 5?



NAKnight
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 30 Nov 2012
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 387
Location: Gitmo Nation Elvis

22 Dec 2012, 1:53 am

MCalavera wrote:
As far as I can see, "Free Choice" is an illusion. There's always something that led to you "choosing" something.


If your right, then your conviction is not really based on reasons--on the merits of the view itself--but on prior conditions that cause your belief.
Without freedom, there is no rationality. Every one of our thoughts , dispositions. So, oddly enough, if there is no free will, no one could ever know it, because they could never have a good reason to believe it.


Best Regards,

Jake


_________________
In The Morning to all Hams on the air, ships at sea, boots on the grounds, drones in the sky and all the Human Resources charged up and ready to go just the way the Government wants you to be..


VIDEODROME
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,691

22 Dec 2012, 2:22 am

Sometimes I think the Free Will thing is almost about semantics. It has some merit though.

I mean an Engineer driving a train can control the speed but can't turn left or right a will because he is stuck on the tracks.

I think people in general can exercise choice within parameters available to them. Also that while the environment affects us, we in turn can make choices and affect our environment. So there is a little give and take there. I can go to a restaurant but only really order what is on the menu so my choice is not completely Free, but I can order from the available items.



Declension
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,807

22 Dec 2012, 2:34 am

MCalavera wrote:
Why is it you can imagine 4D but not 2 + 2 = 5?


Well, maybe "imagine" is the wrong word. Maybe "describe" is a better word?

I can happily describe to you a simple world which has four spacial dimensions. It is a very simple world - in fact it only has one object in it. This object is a solid tesseract (four-dimensional object which is the next object in the pattern "point, line segment, square, cube,...". That's all there is in this world, just a single tesseract. What is it made of? I'm not sure, but it's made of something or other. I haven't given you all the details, but I have transferred a sensible idea from my head to your head.

How could I describe to you a world in which 2 + 2 = 5? Well, here's my best effort: "It's just like this world, except that 2 + 2 = 5". What does that even mean?



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

22 Dec 2012, 2:35 am

NAKnight wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
As far as I can see, "Free Choice" is an illusion. There's always something that led to you "choosing" something.


If your right, then your conviction is not really based on reasons--on the merits of the view itself--but on prior conditions that cause your belief.
Without freedom, there is no rationality. Every one of our thoughts , dispositions. So, oddly enough, if there is no free will, no one could ever know it, because they could never have a good reason to believe it.


Best Regards,

Jake


Just because there isn't any free will doesn't mean we can't be determined by factors in and around us to know it.



MCalavera
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Dec 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,442

22 Dec 2012, 2:39 am

VIDEODROME wrote:
Sometimes I think the Free Will thing is almost about semantics. It has some merit though.

I mean an Engineer driving a train can control the speed but can't turn left or right a will because he is stuck on the tracks.

I think people in general can exercise choice within parameters available to them. Also that while the environment affects us, we in turn can make choices and affect our environment. So there is a little give and take there. I can go to a restaurant but only really order what is on the menu so my choice is not completely Free, but I can order from the available items.


But what you choose to order is based on your preferences or recommendations by others which, in turn, are based on past experiences and so many other personal factors that contribute to your preferences and tastes.

Free will suggests that you can choose something without being determined by anything to choose it. You just freely choose it. How? I don't really know how it works as it's impossible for me to imagine it. But some people feel better believing in it regardless.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

22 Dec 2012, 3:57 am

I can scarcely believe that any of you guys can take this sh*t seriously.

ruveyn



ArrantPariah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Age: 120
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,972

22 Dec 2012, 9:28 am

Still no input from the Bible-believers. Now I'm sure that they've been raptured away.

It is too late to speculate on such matters. If you didn't buy the story that Jesus was your personal scapegoat (which is obvious, since you are still on Earth and typing at your keyboard), then you are off to eternal damnation.



Jitro
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 May 2012
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 589

22 Dec 2012, 10:03 am

Declension wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Why is it you can imagine 4D but not 2 + 2 = 5?


Well, maybe "imagine" is the wrong word. Maybe "describe" is a better word?

I can happily describe to you a simple world which has four spacial dimensions. It is a very simple world - in fact it only has one object in it. This object is a solid tesseract (four-dimensional object which is the next object in the pattern "point, line segment, square, cube,...". That's all there is in this world, just a single tesseract. What is it made of? I'm not sure, but it's made of something or other. I haven't given you all the details, but I have transferred a sensible idea from my head to your head.

How could I describe to you a world in which 2 + 2 = 5? Well, here's my best effort: "It's just like this world, except that 2 + 2 = 5". What does that even mean?


You can imagine a universe where the laws of physics are different. You cannot however imagine one where the laws of mathematics are different.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

22 Dec 2012, 10:05 am

Jitro wrote:

You can imagine a universe where the laws of physics are different. You cannot however imagine one where the laws of mathematics are different.


Not so. How did we get from Euclidean Geometry to non Euclidean Geometry. How did we get from commutative algebras to non commutative algebras (e.g. the algebra of matrices and linear transformations. Non commutative).

There are even paraconsistent logics where non-contradiction does not hold.

ruveyn



TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

22 Dec 2012, 10:10 am

ruveyn wrote:
I can scarcely believe that any of you guys can take this sh*t seriously.

ruveyn


I was going to make a long post but simply saying "ditto" to yours makes more sense and will suffice.


_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.


AspieOtaku
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,051
Location: San Jose

22 Dec 2012, 1:08 pm

Because gods a jerk and if you do die even after following all the crap he tells you to what if he doesnt send you there as he puts on his troll face?


_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList


NAKnight
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 30 Nov 2012
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 387
Location: Gitmo Nation Elvis

22 Dec 2012, 2:30 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Just because there isn't any free will doesn't mean we can't be determined by factors in and around us to know it.


You are determined to believe in determinism.


Best Regards,

Jake


_________________
In The Morning to all Hams on the air, ships at sea, boots on the grounds, drones in the sky and all the Human Resources charged up and ready to go just the way the Government wants you to be..


NAKnight
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 30 Nov 2012
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 387
Location: Gitmo Nation Elvis

22 Dec 2012, 2:42 pm

MCalavera wrote:
But what you choose to order is based on your preferences or recommendations by others which, in turn, are based on past experiences and so many other personal factors that contribute to your preferences and tastes.


I can choose to follow my parents directions or I can choose to ignore it and go my own way. No one is holding a philosophical "gun" to my head directing me to and from what I'm supposed to do. I know that to be true because I have alternative choices available for me to make.

MCalavera wrote:
Free will suggests that you can choose something without being determined by anything to choose it. You just freely choose it.


It is just as simple as that. You just spelled it out cut and dry. There is consequences both positive and negative for your actions, that is the essence of free will.


Best Regards,

Jake


_________________
In The Morning to all Hams on the air, ships at sea, boots on the grounds, drones in the sky and all the Human Resources charged up and ready to go just the way the Government wants you to be..