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ruveyn
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10 Feb 2013, 7:45 am

salad wrote:
Studied this monster and with bold confidence am declaring him to be as evil as that scumbag hitler. Both are scumbags that deserve punishment, however people have the nerve to make a holiday honoring this scumbag, called Christopher Columbus Day, despite the genocide that he committed towards the native Americans. Screw both hitler and Columbus and whoever views either as a hero is sick in the head. However the name hitler is associated with the devil, while Columbus name is associated with a hero?? Am I missing something?? Columbus Day shouldn't be a holiday nor should his name be mentioned unless in the context of disdain and disgust at this monster.


In the United States Columbus was presented as a Hero-Discoverer. In the 19 th, the famous American author Washington Irving produced a three part biography of C.C. It was much more legend than fact. This is where the canard of Christopher Columbus convincing the rulers of Spain that the earth was spherical. This is nonsense. At the time of Columbus every educated person know the earth was spherical. They probably believed that the earth as at rest with the other bodies in the solar system revolving around our planet, but there was no illusion as to the -shape- of the earth. In the Islamic domains, Greek and Hellenic knowledge were studied and preserved so at least in the Islamic domains the circumference of the earth was known (discovered by Eratosthenes, about 200 b.c.e.).

Washington Irving was presented as a Hero and Explorer. He was no Hero. He was ambitious and power hungry. In return for promising to bring back the spice and gold riches of the Indies, he expected to be appointed as a grand admiral. Columbus was an extremely able navigator who knew the trade winds. What he did not know is that there were two major continents between Spain and the Orient going westward. So when he landed in what was later called the Caribean Sea, he thought he had reached the spice islands of the Indies.

Columbus was a nasty man, as you point out, and not the noble hero that Washington Irving's mostly legendary account presents.

They have a saying in America. If the Legend contradicts the Facts, print the Legend.

ruveyn



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10 Feb 2013, 10:28 am

salad wrote:
Tequila wrote:
But Hitler must not be that bad according to your religion's holy texts (referring to what Islam says about Jews).

I don't need any more of your two year old nonsense. Leave if you don't have anything significant to contribute. Islamophobia at its finest. Islam condemns Hitler. The mufti who supported Hitler was a disgrace.

Then why is it that Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, the spiritual leader of The Muslim Brotherhood (and perhaps the most authoritative living figure in contemporary Islam) calls the Holocaust "Divine Punishment" for the Jews?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcB_DZ4YQYQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_al-Qaradawi

salad wrote:
Prove to me that Islam supports genocide of Jews, not posting crazy Muslims preaching kill the Jews, but actual Islamic texts saying kill the Jews.
Before you post that whole stones and trees thing, I suggest you look up the context of that story and understand the entire tree rather than scrutinize the branch. It is referring to the war that will take place between both groups. How do you know that the Jews won't instigate the war and the Muslims will have to fight?

The hadith of the Gharqad Tree is an authoritative Islamic text. As mentioned before, it is it supported by no less than seven ahadith from the two Sahihs.

And your call for context makes it even worse. When the verse says "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews" it doesn't just supports the extermination of Jews, it makes it the destiny of Muslims until the end of days.

Oh, I am surely making this up, right... Oh, wait. From the mouth of the current Grand Mufti of Jerusalem himself, Muhammad Ahmad Hussein:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDoV8ZL9Xkc

salad wrote:
After all can you name one massacre, battle or killing of the Jews during the prophet pbuh time that was unjustified. Every battle, massacre or killing was instigated by the Jews. Why did he massacre babu qurayza ? Because they broke their treaty and tried to wipe out the Muslims. Why did he capture the babu qunaiqa? Because they broke their treaty. Please name one incident where the prophet killed a Jew unjustly who abided by the treaty of peace. None exist, every Jew killed was a result of their own gamble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 512 :
"The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, "Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned." Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet. The Prophet made her manumission as her 'Mahr'."

Of course, this is all assuming that the Islamic justifications for the 3 separate purges of Jewish Tribes from Medina and its environs weren't just fabrications... It's funny how Muhammad practically wiped out all the Jewish tribes in the Arabian Peninsula in "self defence".

History is written by the winners, indeed...

salad wrote:
They wanted to be hostile, that's not my problem. they brought it upon themselves. Islamic texts talking about killing innocent Jews, peaceful non hostile Jews don't exist.

Your honour, ladies and gentlemen on the Jury, I rest my case.



Last edited by GGPViper on 10 Feb 2013, 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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10 Feb 2013, 11:10 am

GGPViper wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 512 :
"The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, "Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned." Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet. The Prophet made her manumission as her 'Mahr'."


"Khaibar, Khaibar ya Yahud!" is a very common chant at Islamist anti-Israel demonstrations.



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10 Feb 2013, 11:41 am

Columbus was a jackass but that doesn't quite make him Hitler.



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10 Feb 2013, 11:48 am

Well, in regards to the topic of the thread, Columbus was crazy. He was extremely greedy, for one - when he went to Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand to ask for a sponsorship, he demanded to be made "Admiral of the Ocean Sea [the Atlantic]", he wanted 10% of the treasure gained on the trip, and he wanted to be made governor of every land he discovered, and he wanted that position of governor to be passed down to his descendants "for evermore". (The King and Queen initially refused his sponsorship, but the Queen's confessor convinced her otherwise.) The person who first spotted land was to obtain a large reward, and Columbus claimed he had seen it, but it was actually another man who saw it. When he arrived at the island now known as San Salvador, he immediately took some of the Arawaks (the natives) captive and demanded them to tell him where the gold was. He didn't find much gold, but he brought back plenty of exotic plants and animals, and he took 500 Arawaks to Spain too. Three hundred of those Arawaks died due to the cold climate on the voyage back, and the rest were sold into slavery.

Columbus had left 39 men behind to gather more wealth - mainly because one of the ships was destroyed, and the other two could not carry the remaining men. These men were all dead when Columbus returned, because they had also been taking the native girls.

A tax was instigated on the Arawaks - all of them who were over a certain age had to bring a certain amount of gold back every three months, and they would get a copper token signifying that they had paid their tax. It was impossible to get this amount of gold, so after three months, the Spaniards began hunting the natives down with dogs and killing them.

One of the natives told Columbus that Cuba was actually an island while he was on Cuba. He ordered the rest of his men to not utter a word of that truth, on pain of having their tongues cut out.

I could go on and on about this, but I think that gives everyone the gist of how bad he really was.



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10 Feb 2013, 1:34 pm

Dragoness wrote:
Well, in regards to the topic of the thread, Columbus was crazy. He was extremely greedy, for one - when he went to Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand to ask for a sponsorship, he demanded to be made "Admiral of the Ocean Sea [the Atlantic]", he wanted 10% of the treasure gained on the trip, and he wanted to be made governor of every land he discovered, and he wanted that position of governor to be passed down to his descendants "for evermore". (The King and Queen initially refused his sponsorship, but the Queen's confessor convinced her otherwise.) The person who first spotted land was to obtain a large reward, and Columbus claimed he had seen it, but it was actually another man who saw it. When he arrived at the island now known as San Salvador, he immediately took some of the Arawaks (the natives) captive and demanded them to tell him where the gold was. He didn't find much gold, but he brought back plenty of exotic plants and animals, and he took 500 Arawaks to Spain too. Three hundred of those Arawaks died due to the cold climate on the voyage back, and the rest were sold into slavery.

Columbus had left 39 men behind to gather more wealth - mainly because one of the ships was destroyed, and the other two could not carry the remaining men. These men were all dead when Columbus returned, because they had also been taking the native girls.

A tax was instigated on the Arawaks - all of them who were over a certain age had to bring a certain amount of gold back every three months, and they would get a copper token signifying that they had paid their tax. It was impossible to get this amount of gold, so after three months, the Spaniards began hunting the natives down with dogs and killing them.

One of the natives told Columbus that Cuba was actually an island while he was on Cuba. He ordered the rest of his men to not utter a word of that truth, on pain of having their tongues cut out.

I could go on and on about this, but I think that gives everyone the gist of how bad he really was.

But in the end, the greatest atrocity in the colonization of The New World wasn't even deliberate at all...

Enter smallpox... Exit Aztec and Inca civilization.



Tequila
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10 Feb 2013, 1:35 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Enter smallpox... Exit Aztec and Inca civilization.


Indeed. Bam. Just like that.



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10 Feb 2013, 1:55 pm

Tequila wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Enter smallpox... Exit Aztec and Inca civilization.


Indeed. Bam. Just like that.


Only too true. :(



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10 Feb 2013, 2:44 pm

Columbus was dead wrong about many things. He thought the ancient Greeks had made an error in their calculations, for instance, and that Earth was only 5000 miles around, which is why he thought he could sail to Cathay by going west. Had there not been a set of previously-unknown land masses in the way, he and his men would have all died at sea.

However, the only deliberate evil he perpetrated was on his third voyage, when he tried to take Carib slaves back to Spain. The Spanish officials on the island of Hispaniola arrested him and sent him home in chains.

Now, there were evils perpetrated by the conquistadores, from attempted genocide to slavery to destruction of the Mayan codexes (on the theory that since they weren't written by Christians, they must be heretical), but those weren't really Columbus' fault. It has become politically correct, particularly in the Azatlan movement, to claim such Hitlerian status for Columbus, but really it's more a matter of Godwin's Law that predates the Internet.


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10 Feb 2013, 2:52 pm

I don't celebrate Columbus day or Thankstaking.They both $uck.
Thanks for the diseases and invasive species Columbus.


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10 Feb 2013, 4:28 pm

Columbus was a selfish greedy prick but if it werent for him the rest of the world would be ignorant of the existence of the Americas except for the natives inhabiting the land. There would be no advancements of technology etc there would be no South American countries or Central American countries and there would be no Mexico. There would be no America either if there was a time machine to prevent coutries like America from forming im pretty sure many people would use the time machine for that purpose.


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10 Feb 2013, 4:44 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
Columbus was dead wrong about many things. He thought the ancient Greeks had made an error in their calculations, for instance, and that Earth was only 5000 miles around, which is why he thought he could sail to Cathay by going west. Had there not been a set of previously-unknown land masses in the way, he and his men would have all died at sea.

However, the only deliberate evil he perpetrated was on his third voyage, when he tried to take Carib slaves back to Spain. The Spanish officials on the island of Hispaniola arrested him and sent him home in chains.

Now, there were evils perpetrated by the conquistadores, from attempted genocide to slavery to destruction of the Mayan codexes (on the theory that since they weren't written by Christians, they must be heretical), but those weren't really Columbus' fault. It has become politically correct, particularly in the Azatlan movement, to claim such Hitlerian status for Columbus, but really it's more a matter of Godwin's Law that predates the Internet.


I completely agree with you, except I'm pretty sure taking someone else's rightful reward is pretty evil. And forcing people into slavery is also evil. But you're right - he's not a Hitler.



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10 Feb 2013, 4:55 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
Columbus was a selfish greedy prick but if it werent for him the rest of the world would be ignorant of the existence of the Americas except for the natives inhabiting the land. There would be no advancements of technology etc there would be no South American countries or Central American countries and there would be no Mexico. There would be no America either if there was a time machine to prevent coutries like America from forming im pretty sure many people would use the time machine for that purpose.


Don't be too sure of that. North America had been visited by Norsemen hundreds of years before Columbus sailed. It was only a matter of time before such a journey would be done and properly mapped. There is even some evidence (far from convincing) that Chinese fleets had visited the west coasts of North and South America.

That Atlantic is well dotted with Islands so for sailor equal to North Atlantic weather the trip is hard but far from impossible. Crossing the pacific is a different matter entirely. Polynesian mariners went thousands of miles across the pacific to settle in what is now Hawaii. And they did it without a North Star to guide them.

ruveyn



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10 Feb 2013, 5:09 pm

GGPViper wrote:
salad wrote:
Tequila wrote:
But Hitler must not be that bad according to your religion's holy texts (referring to what Islam says about Jews).

I don't need any more of your two year old nonsense. Leave if you don't have anything significant to contribute. Islamophobia at its finest. Islam condemns Hitler. The mufti who supported Hitler was a disgrace.

Then why is it that Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, the spiritual leader of The Muslim Brotherhood (and perhaps the most authoritative living figure in contemporary Islam) calls the Holocaust "Divine Punishment" for the Jews?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcB_DZ4YQYQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_al-Qaradawi

salad wrote:
Prove to me that Islam supports genocide of Jews, not posting crazy Muslims preaching kill the Jews, but actual Islamic texts saying kill the Jews.
Before you post that whole stones and trees thing, I suggest you look up the context of that story and understand the entire tree rather than scrutinize the branch. It is referring to the war that will take place between both groups. How do you know that the Jews won't instigate the war and the Muslims will have to fight?

The hadith of the Gharqad Tree is an authoritative Islamic text. As mentioned before, it is it supported by no less than seven ahadith from the two Sahihs.

And your call for context makes it even worse. When the verse says "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews" it doesn't just supports the extermination of Jews, it makes it the destiny of Muslims until the end of days.

Oh, I am surely making this up, right... Oh, wait. From the mouth of the current Grand Mufti of Jerusalem himself, Muhammad Ahmad Hussein:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDoV8ZL9Xkc

salad wrote:
After all can you name one massacre, battle or killing of the Jews during the prophet pbuh time that was unjustified. Every battle, massacre or killing was instigated by the Jews. Why did he massacre babu qurayza ? Because they broke their treaty and tried to wipe out the Muslims. Why did he capture the babu qunaiqa? Because they broke their treaty. Please name one incident where the prophet killed a Jew unjustly who abided by the treaty of peace. None exist, every Jew killed was a result of their own gamble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 512 :
"The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer near Khaibar when it was still dark and then said, "Allahu-Akbar! Khaibar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a (hostile) nation (to fight), then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned." Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet. The Prophet made her manumission as her 'Mahr'."

Of course, this is all assuming that the Islamic justifications for the 3 separate purges of Jewish Tribes from Medina and its environs weren't just fabrications... It's funny how Muhammad practically wiped out all the Jewish tribes in the Arabian Peninsula in "self defence".

History is written by the winners, indeed...

salad wrote:
They wanted to be hostile, that's not my problem. they brought it upon themselves. Islamic texts talking about killing innocent Jews, peaceful non hostile Jews don't exist.

Your honour, ladies and gentlemen on the Jury, I rest my case.


What on earth did I say that you find flabbergasting? And yes they all started the wars, stop being ignorant and read a book about this. They broke every treaty, started every war and initiated open hostility and aggression. Khaybar was a justified battle, banu Nader deserved to be punished for their record of hostility and aggression against the Muslims. What on earth is wrong with what I said anyways, all I said was Islam forbids killing peaceful non hostile Jews, I didn't say there are no peaceful Jews, I said there are no TEXTS saying to kill peaceful Jews. Don't misquote me. Heck Islam forbids killing Jews period. Hitler is in hell. The mufti who supported him was crazy. No way is what hitler did justified on any level.



salad
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10 Feb 2013, 5:14 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
salad wrote:
islamic texts talking about killing innocent Jews, peaceful non hostile Jews don't exist.


That's an antisemitic thing to say, I hope you didn't mean it.

My experience of Jews says otherwise.


OMG. I never said Jews aren't peaceful, I said texts saying to kill peaceful Jews don't exist. Why? Because the Quran says to treat the non muslims who aren't hostile with justice and respect. God said to only fight those that are hostile to you because of religious discrimination and who want to make you leave your religion by persecuting you for your faith.

Surah mumtahina verses eight to nine

I didn't say peaceful Jews don't exist, verses that say to kill peaceful Jews don't exist.

Please don't misquote me, this proves how deceptive you can be.



Last edited by salad on 10 Feb 2013, 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Feb 2013, 5:15 pm

^ I wasn't misquoting you. The syntax of the sentence your wrote was ambiguous. Thanks for clearing that up.

You need another comma in that sentence.



Last edited by puddingmouse on 10 Feb 2013, 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.