United States Fails To Show For Drone Hearing

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Magneto
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31 Oct 2013, 6:33 pm

No. I'm implying Pakistan should recognise that the US has declared war on them and take appropriate action.

albedo
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31 Oct 2013, 6:49 pm

A country that officially denies existence of Armenia and the Armenia genocide, Pakistan doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

As bad as the US may be it doesn't trump the 13 centuries of internal conflict within the Islamic world.

Since you are complaining about what we have done the Islamic world thomas, you might to compare this in real terms with how many people they have displaced an killed in their own conflicts with that.

Much of what we are getting the blame for wouldn't be an issue if they could just get along with each other.

I'm not saying there aren't issues of contention, but this idea this victim mentality that you promote helps the situation in the middle east is very much misguided.

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31 Oct 2013, 7:19 pm

albedo wrote:

That doesn't justify America's cavalier disregard for the lives of Pakistani civilians.

Whats even more astounding is that Pakistan is supposed to be an 'ally'.

Like I said, if anyone started launching missiles at american families the men in suits would be baying for blood.

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Tequila
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31 Oct 2013, 7:23 pm

Pakistani writer Kunwar Khuldune Shahid penned a splendid article last week about what he calls 'dronophobia':

Quote:

Dronophobia

The irrational, abnormal and persistent fear of drone strikes

Dronophobia is a case of specific phobia, the irrational, abnormal and persistent fear of drone strikes. A dronophobe believes that drone strikes causes more harm to a state than suicide bombings or military operations, even if the actual threat posed is significantly less. Sufferers experience excessive anxiety even though they realise that the targets of the strikes can cause and have caused considerably more damage than drones.

When this fear reaches an extreme state the person starts juxtaposing the achievements of young girls fighting for female education or anyone getting global acclaim, with drone strike victims. That and linking unrelated events like terrorists blowing themselves up in places of worship, one sect of a particular religion butchering another sect or religious fundamentalists brainwashing the youth, to drone strikes, are considered to be the typical symptoms of Dronophobia.

When this fear reaches an extreme state the person starts juxtaposing the achievements of young girls fighting for female education or anyone getting global acclaim, with drone strike victims. That and linking unrelated events like terrorists blowing themselves up in places of worship, one sect of a particular religion butchering another sect or religious fundamentalists brainwashing the youth, to drone strikes, are considered to be the typical symptoms of Dronophobia.

I like this guy. He is as bright as a button.

thomas81
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31 Oct 2013, 7:26 pm

i would hardly write it off as an 'irrational fear', whenever one is preventing their daughter looking at their grandmothers corpse because she has been so badly mutilated by a missile strike,

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91
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31 Oct 2013, 7:34 pm

Pakistan is the most serious threat to global security but not because of its government. Rather, it is the government failure scenario that troubles us the most. Thus we are trying to help the government keep itself in power. When we pull out of Afghanistan, the safe haven situation could very easily reverse. Rather than using Pakistan as a safe place to destabilize Afghanistan the opposite could happen The government however is doing its level best to commit national suicide by not fighting hard enough to push the radicals out of their base in the north. I have friends in Islamabad who just do not seem to understand how little credibility their state has in international politics. They just don't understand where they presently sit and what they have lost from Abbottabad. The American policy makers are just sick of being blame for everything that goes wrong there, when it is usually a local policy failure.

As much as I like my mates, Islamabad has drifted as a political entity into la la land. They think that none blow-back from using radicals as leverage against India falls on them. They also see no connection in embracing the Taliban in Afghanistan and the rebels in the NW Frontier Province. As a result the US has been using direct action (with the consent of several successive Pakistani Governments) as a way of providing a stop gap to the problem. I disagree with the policy in that I think the campaign is poor idea, as once again Pakistan gets to blame America for its failure to solve its own problems. It is a great solution for them and not much of one for us, unless there is hope that it will lead to Pakistan stepping up to the plate, which they will have to do as the US withdraws forces from Afghanistan.

The situation going forward for Pakistan does not look good, not even the Chinese want to help bail them out. They have no real friends left but they remain an important focus for global security. All I can say for certain is that chaps who want to raise the flag against the US over the issue are not going to apprehend the difficulty of the situation and are probably not useful voices in the discussion. People who parade around the dead as evidence of their prejudices are not going to be great discussants because their prejudice finds evidence rather than the evidence finding a conclusion. They will make fetish items of the dead to further their own aims and trivializes both those who have lost their lives and the matter at hand.

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thomas81
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31 Oct 2013, 7:44 pm

91 wrote:

The situation going forward for Pakistan does not look good, not even the Chinese want to help bail them out. They have no real friends left but they remain an important focus for global security. All I can say for certain is that chaps who want to raise the flag against the US over the issue are not going to apprehend the difficulty of the situation and are probably not useful voices in the discussion. People who parade around the dead as evidence of their prejudices are not going to be great discussants because their prejudice finds evidence rather than the evidence finding a conclusion. They will make fetish items of the dead to further their own aims and trivializes both those who have lost their lives and the matter at hand.

the point remains. What did America achieve by ignoring the hearing? Attending could have been an important olive branch, however meagre.

Its astounding how some are willing to act as apologists, even in the face of such callous disregard.

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Tequila
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31 Oct 2013, 7:45 pm

thomas81 wrote:

i would hardly write it off as an 'irrational fear', whenever one is preventing their daughter looking at their grandmothers corpse because she has been so badly mutilated by a missile strike,

You neatly proved Khuldune's theory absolutely right. His point was that drones are trying to bring down people who cause immeasurably more harm to their communities. Mistakes (civilian casualties) are an unfortunate side effect of drones, but that they are much less of a danger to their people than the stone-age religious fanatics who rule over them with an iron fist.

If I was living in a place like that, I would laud drone strikes (silently, of course) if I thought they brought me freedom from that tyranny.

Well done. Have a sticker and a biscuit.

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31 Oct 2013, 7:49 pm

Tequila wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

i would hardly write it off as an 'irrational fear', whenever one is preventing their daughter looking at their grandmothers corpse because she has been so badly mutilated by a missile strike,

Its not the USA's place to act as the moral authority, or judge jury and executioner by forcibly controlling who does or doesn't control Pakistan.

If real democracy is to emerge it can only come from the grassroots.

Its fine for Khuldune to posturise from his ivory tower. Perhaps he'll change his tune, when its his mother or father spread across some part of rural Pakistan.

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91
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31 Oct 2013, 8:14 pm

thomas81 wrote:

the point remains. What did America achieve by ignoring the hearing? Attending could have been an important olive branch, however meagre.

There were five people in attendance to a non-committee hearing, that is actually quite a few and Grayson said as much. The hearing was an olive branch and has been well reported on within the US. Complaining about attendance seems more like you are looking for something to find something.

thomas81 wrote:

Its not the USA's place to act as the moral authority, or judge jury and executioner by forcibly controlling who does or doesn't control Pakistan.

No, your logic clearly shows that moral authority and the ultimate judge of all things America is, has been or will be is some chap on the internet.

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cubedemon6073
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01 Nov 2013, 6:46 am

Fnord wrote:

Oh, sod off already!

We all know that you hate America and Israel, so why don't you find something else to obsess about?

The United States of America is not beholden to any third-rate leftist rag or third-world country, and it is certainly not beholden to you.

What you're telling me is our country is not accountable to anyone. Let's see what Lord Action has to say about this.

Lord Acton wrote:

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.

I am probably wasting my time for even writing this to you. Fnord, you can't just solely look at the world of facts. You have to look at the world of ideas as well and examine where these ideas may lead to. I have examined the ideas of our inalienable rights and property rights as well. What if the idea of inalienability which may have been a positive idea end up dooming us especially if it is taken in an absolute way.

The idea of inalienability is a double edged sword. Others like Marshall, GoodSquad, and Thomas have tried to tell you this. Should a person or a group of people be allowed to amass so much wealth that they become more powerful than our government and are able to buy out the government? After that, they change our republican form of government to a capitalist form of despotism.

It is not about envy of the billionaire or anyone else. It is about preventing a tyranny from happening because of the very ideas that were supposed to protect our rights. No one is jealous of your Lamborghini, Fnord. What will it take to get this through your thick skull that the ideas that made our nation great has become our tomb and grave?

cubedemon6073
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01 Nov 2013, 7:37 am

Arran wrote:

Fnord wrote:

The United States of America is not beholden to any third-rate leftist rag or third-world country, and it is certainly not beholden to you.

The United States is a throughly arrogant nation and a law unto itself. It is a bad global citizen. This is coming from a Nationalist who is boycotting American electronic products. The time is long overdue for the rest of the world to form an alliance of self governing independent states to gang up against the US and sanction it like the US is sanctioning Iran.

Arran, the problem is you're preaching to the choir. Thomas, Goonsquad, Marshall, You, and I are on the same page but but none of us are going to convince anyone who does not want to be convinced. No revolution or movement is going to change anything in the USA. The assumption that progressives have is that the 99% is being raped by the 1% and the 1% has pulled the wool over the 99%'s eyes. The ugly truth is it is consensual sex. The 99% are the bricks in the wall but they're also the brick layers. The 99% are not against the 1%, they want to become the 1%. This is why OWS has failed and will keep on failing.

True reforms that are needed in this country can never happen because of our very identity and who we are as a nation. There are underlying assumptions in our DNA that makes us who we are today. These very things will be the USA's downfall. Our problems are ontological.

Dr. Berman wrote "conspiracy VS. Conspiracy". http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID ... 5257467468

thomas81
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01 Nov 2013, 10:07 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:

but they're also the brick layers. The 99% are not against the 1%, they want to become the 1%. This is why OWS has failed and will keep on failing.

OWS failed because they didn't bring an alternative to the table, but thats for another thread.

However I wouldn't agree it was a total waste though. It did succeed in increasing the public lexicon and the idea of mass consensus against the status quo.

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GGPViper
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01 Nov 2013, 3:20 pm

The leader of the Pakistani Taliban (not "a" leader, "the" leader) was apparently just killed by a US drone strike.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24776363
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakimullah_Mehsud

So, will the drone operator get the $ 5 million reward? :scratch:

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01 Nov 2013, 4:52 pm

91 wrote:

Pakistan is the most serious threat to global security but not because of its government. Rather, it is the government failure scenario that troubles us the most. Thus we are trying to help the government keep itself in power. When we pull out of Afghanistan, the safe haven situation could very easily reverse. Rather than using Pakistan as a safe place to destabilize Afghanistan the opposite could happen The government however is doing its level best to commit national suicide by not fighting hard enough to push the radicals out of their base in the north. I have friends in Islamabad who just do not seem to understand how little credibility their state has in international politics. They just don't understand where they presently sit and what they have lost from Abbottabad. The American policy makers are just sick of being blame for everything that goes wrong there, when it is usually a local policy failure.

As much as I like my mates, Islamabad has drifted as a political entity into la la land. They think that none blow-back from using radicals as leverage against India falls on them. They also see no connection in embracing the Taliban in Afghanistan and the rebels in the NW Frontier Province. As a result the US has been using direct action (with the consent of several successive Pakistani Governments) as a way of providing a stop gap to the problem. I disagree with the policy in that I think the campaign is poor idea, as once again Pakistan gets to blame America for its failure to solve its own problems. It is a great solution for them and not much of one for us, unless there is hope that it will lead to Pakistan stepping up to the plate, which they will have to do as the US withdraws forces from Afghanistan.
The situation going forward for Pakistan does not look good, not even the Chinese want to help bail them out. They have no real friends left but they remain an important focus for global security. All I can say for certain is that chaps who want to raise the flag against the US over the issue are not going to apprehend the difficulty of the situation and are probably not useful voices in the discussion. People who parade around the dead as evidence of their prejudices are not going to be great discussants because their prejudice finds evidence rather than the evidence finding a conclusion. They will make fetish items of the dead to further their own aims and trivializes both those who have lost their lives and the matter at hand.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O486MgCTq34[/youtube]Yeah also what I see is more of the inevitable Like in this vid.

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01 Nov 2013, 5:03 pm

OP's link won't load
OK, got it...

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