Does Pope Francis kick ass?

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MCalavera
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27 Nov 2013, 12:57 pm

GGPViper wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

Worse in terms of being a joker.

This is the same Pope who said earlier that atheists can still go to heaven as atheists. This is way absurd even for Catholicism. Comes off as very insincere.

I hate the Catholic church, but I also hate people like him even more.

That is actually a serious and protracted theological dispute within Catholicism, that of the old doctrine of "no salvation outside the church", or Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus.

Does this apply to atheists as well? That is, those who explicitly reject God?

Either way, the point is that, despite his position as Pope, is pandering to the outsider public so they could say he's such a great guy and therefore use this thinking for the benefit of the Church's name. I think this is sneaky and manipulative given that the Church is not very likely to change its views on atheist salvation and it's not necessarily going to fix issues related to birth control and such. So by getting more people to be fond of the Church because he knows how to come out a nice guy, how does this benefit the world in the long run? I see no benefit but more potential for harm from the Church.

sonofghandi
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27 Nov 2013, 1:21 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Wait for his actions first, and then admire him. He is still a politician at the end of the day, and a very sneaky one at that.

His actions have so far been far beyond my expectations for a higher up in the Catholic church. I see this as a sign that the Catholic church may actually be looking forward instead of clinging to the past.

Quote:

On the first Holy Thursday following his election, Francis washed and kissed the feet of ten male and two female juvenile offenders, not all Catholic, aged from 14 to 21, imprisoned at Rome's Casal del Marmo detention facility, telling them the ritual of foot washing is a sign that he is at their service. He told them to "Help one another. This is what Jesus teaches us." and "Do not let yourselves be robbed of hope."

According to church experts, this was the first time that a pope had included women in this ritual. One of the male and one of the female offenders was Muslim. Canon lawyer Edward Peters criticised the inclusion of women as a break with canon law, although not with any "divine directive".

He has been addressing the child molestation issues instead of ignoring them, he has gotten an independent agency to come audit and investigate questionable dealings in the Institute for the Works of Religion (the Vatican Bank) including all customer contacts, he dismisses those who criticize him for not making contraception and abortion a priority (and homosexuality for that matter), and he is attempting to de-centralize the church and overhaul the Vatican administration.

I still do not agree with many of his stances, but I am glad that his primary focus seems to be on helping those less fortunate rather than an obsessive fixation on abortion, contraception, and homosexuality.

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GoonSquad
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27 Nov 2013, 2:02 pm

I think Francis has done plenty to demonstrate that he is about doing real reform and tangible good in the real world. He has been trying to minimize those points of real division (between believers and non) so that people of good will CAN come together on common ground and achieve common goals...

The Zealots at both ends--those who would rather serve an ideology than their fellowman--will never be convinced.

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wozeree
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27 Nov 2013, 2:15 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Maybe not insincere, maybe he just believes that heaven exists, but ritual isn't everything.

naturalplastic
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27 Nov 2013, 3:28 pm

I got no problem with him.

He is certainly more qualified for the job than the last guy who was certainly not a 'people person'.

And the new guy is more than just 'a pretty face'( ie a personable father figure), but has interesting things to say.

So far so good.

MCalavera
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27 Nov 2013, 9:12 pm

sonofghandi wrote:

John Paul II made great "achievements" as well. He apologized to the public for the tragedies and disasters caused by the Church in history past. But it doesn't necessarily mean he was to be trusted.

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So? What good does kissing people's feet do?

You think manipulative people would never do such a thing in the eyes of the public? It's like a politician on camera with children gathering around him to show that he cares about children.

Quote:

According to church experts, this was the first time that a pope had included women in this ritual. One of the male and one of the female offenders was Muslim. Canon lawyer Edward Peters criticised the inclusion of women as a break with canon law, although not with any "divine directive".

Still not impressed.

John Paul II almost made love to the Qur'an if I remember correctly.

Quote:

He has been addressing the child molestation issues instead of ignoring them,

Yeah, how? With pretty words that soothe the public ears. That's how. Has he done anything substantial about it yet?

Quote:

he is attempting to de-centralize the church and overhaul the Vatican administration.

He still wants to be Pope though. Just in a "different" way. Which is really all the same to me. He is still imposing unnecessary and harsh rules on his own people.

Murihiku
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27 Nov 2013, 10:02 pm

sonofghandi wrote:

I still do not agree with many of his stances, but I am glad that his primary focus seems to be on helping those less fortunate rather than an obsessive fixation on abortion, contraception, and homosexuality.

^^ This.

I'll wait and see what he manages to accomplish as Pope, but so far I rather like his focus on servitude rather than endless and rigid proselytising. I don't agree with everything the Catholic church teaches, but it's good to see even this change of direction. I hope it sticks.

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LKL
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27 Nov 2013, 11:58 pm

I'm not going to return to the fold, but he makes me less ashamed to come from a Catholic family.

MCalavera
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28 Nov 2013, 1:22 am

How so? He opposes abortion and gay marriage and women priests, matters that I believe you have strong views on, LKL.

http://mirandacelestehale.net/2013/07/2 ... -rhetoric/

TallyMan
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