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08 Dec 2013, 4:09 am

It's never good to commit a evil.


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azaam
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08 Dec 2013, 4:12 am

MCalavera wrote:
Magneto wrote:
A is not B, and B is C, then how can A be C?


Just to be clear, what does each of the letters represent for this "scenario"?


I think he means:
A is evil
B is good


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08 Dec 2013, 4:31 am

Evil is in the eye of the beholder, in effect.

True good and Evil, only God can know....humans at best can only guess, based on foundational beliefs and how it relates to themselves and their experience. It's overall moot though, as it's not quantifiable equally to observers and can't be truly addressed. It's conjecture of conjecture at best.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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08 Dec 2013, 5:59 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Free will is just free will. It is good or evil depending on what you do with it. It's neither on it's own.


Well, then would it be just as good if people had no free will, or is it really only dependent on how they use their free will?

Free will is neither good nor bad but not having it is considered very bad. Look at how the world sees North Korea.



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08 Dec 2013, 6:05 am

Ganondox wrote:
What sophistry is this? This isn't a question about morality, it's a purely logical statement being misapplied to a real case. Obviously it's not good to do evil as they are opposites. However, it's. not logical to equivate "allowing evil" with "doing evil". Ethics, which are less than mathematical, sorts that out. Here God isn't necessarily doing evil, man is.


So is it a good thing that a perfectly good God allows man the chance to do evil? Logically speaking, it must be good being allowed by a perfectly good God.

So when such a God allows something to happen, how can it possibly be considered evil at times? It's according to his good will, right?



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08 Dec 2013, 6:11 am

Shatbat wrote:
Eh. My argument in that case would be that without free will and the ability to do evil, good would be meaningless. If everybody was good by default then there would be nothing special about being good, but if people can choose to do good things or evil things then there is merit when they choose the former.


Theists often presume that God is goodness and so goodness exists regardless of anything. Now say God is in control of everything that happens in this world. Can there really be any evil happening in this world?

Quote:
So what does it matter whether there is merit or not? I wouldn't know, I'm not a theist anyway. I guess I'll have to think about it


I agree with you basically. But the aim is to point out a few logical inconsistencies with the presumptions of a good God allowing evil to happen.



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08 Dec 2013, 7:51 am

I always wondered why God, if he exist, was ultimate goodness instead of ultimate evil. An evil God now THAT would be something. Or alternatively, if there is God and The Devil, why is it assumed that God is ultimately more powerful? It would be more parsimonious if those two beings were equals in that respect. On the other hand our existence is based on the imbalance between matter and antimatter so that "balance" thing is not set in stone, but now I'm just overthinking lol


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08 Dec 2013, 7:59 am

MCalavera wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
What sophistry is this? This isn't a question about morality, it's a purely logical statement being misapplied to a real case. Obviously it's not good to do evil as they are opposites. However, it's. not logical to equivate "allowing evil" with "doing evil". Ethics, which are less than mathematical, sorts that out. Here God isn't necessarily doing evil, man is.


So is it a good thing that a perfectly good God allows man the chance to do evil?


Yes.


Quote:
Logically speaking, it must be good being allowed by a perfectly good God.


No.


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08 Dec 2013, 8:23 am

Ganondox wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
So is it a good thing that a perfectly good God allows man the chance to do evil?


Yes.


No

Ganondox wrote:


Quote:
Logically speaking, it must be good being allowed by a perfectly good God.


No.


No (it would look cooler if I wrote yes here, but logically I should also be negating here)



Joking aside, could you explain the reason behind your yes/no statements? They don't carry much weight otherwise


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08 Dec 2013, 8:30 am

Shatbat wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
So is it a good thing that a perfectly good God allows man the chance to do evil?


Yes.


No

Ganondox wrote:


Quote:
Logically speaking, it must be good being allowed by a perfectly good God.


No.


No (it would look cooler if I wrote yes here, but logically I should also be negating here)



Joking aside, could you explain the reason behind your yes/no statements? They don't carry much weight otherwise


First one: If he is perfectly good, and he allows man to do evil, then logically it must be a good thing that he allows men to do evil, or else he wouldn't be perfectly good. Now, this is an informal fallacy as it may be faulty to believe God is perfectly good in the first place, but assuming he is and that allowing evil is otherwise morally ambiguous, than allowing evil must be good.

Second one: Because it's a leap in a logic to assume that something allowed by something is their own action.


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08 Dec 2013, 8:59 am

On the first one, well, you pointed out the problem yourself. And I said not too long ago how I didn't really buy god *must* be intrinsically good. (Fact: the first thing to drive me away from religion was reading the bible and realizing Yahweh was a vengeful, jealous, genocidal, egomaniac, short-tempered as*hole)

On the second, if there is a wrongdoing, and you are aware of it, and you have the power to stop it, and you don't, is that a good thing to do?.


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08 Dec 2013, 9:00 am

To Ganondox, Ok, I see we need to go slowly and gradually here.

First, do you consistently agree with the following?

Evil is what goes against God's will (i.e. sin). Good is what goes according to his will.

God is in full control of everything in this reality, and so all things occur according to his good will.



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08 Dec 2013, 9:39 am

MCalavera wrote:
To Ganondox, Ok, I see we need to go slowly and gradually here.

First, do you consistently agree with the following?

Evil is what goes against God's will (i.e. sin). Good is what goes according to his will.

God is in full control of everything in this reality, and so all things occur according to his good will.


No to both.

Shatbat wrote:
On the first one, well, you pointed out the problem yourself. And I said not too long ago how I didn't really buy god *must* be intrinsically good. (Fact: the first thing to drive me away from religion was reading the bible and realizing Yahweh was a vengeful, jealous, genocidal, egomaniac, short-tempered as*hole)

On the second, if there is a wrongdoing, and you are aware of it, and you have the power to stop it, and you don't, is that a good thing to do?.


First, same. Nothing kills faith like le bible.

Second, depends on the context. Generally I'd say no, but sometimes some other moral obligation out weighs it. Here the need for free will is dominant or whatever.


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08 Dec 2013, 10:32 am

Then you're not what I would consider a traditional theist. You believe God is not fully in control.



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08 Dec 2013, 11:06 am

MCalavera wrote:
Then you're not what I would consider a traditional theist. You believe God is not fully in control.


No, I am not, but I'm not sure to what extent most theists consider everything to be God's will. Pretty sure Miley Cyrus being a whore is not God's will. :P


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08 Dec 2013, 2:22 pm

The idea is a dumb premise, by assuming ultimate good and evil are elements or quantifiable constants. They are not.

God no more allows evil, than a rock does. We are not his puppets we are his pets (would you want a pet without will or personality?).

What you folks mean is "why did God create a universe with evil in it"? The answer is, it was the only way it could be done. you people think making reality would be a trite, or simple task making a universe. He even admit's He needed seven days to do it...

Now a day to him could be a couple of billion years...the point is....He admit's limit's (otherwise it would take just a day). What is is what had to be, thank heavens God grew out of his dinosaur phase.

So no....he's not behind the twerking...


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