Arrogant Americans are getting their comeuppance

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jrjones9933
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17 Dec 2013, 11:40 pm

Don't forget the Just World Fallacy



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18 Dec 2013, 1:12 am

Fnord wrote:
Shatbat wrote:
Wow. It really sounds serious. I wonder what will the state of affairs be when the dust settles down.

When the dust settles, India will still be a third-world country, losing as many of its best and brightest minds to American interests, and watching its women get sold into 'marriage' and gang-raped in factories and on public transportation.

Americans, at least, still have reason to be arrogant ...


But a fair amount of the USA's current power comes from their position and influence over other countries in the world. If their influence over India weakens, so will their power. And other countries will see it is possible to have a spine.

I haven't read much on what kind of actions will the US take. If they let it happen it could pave the way for other countries to do the same. If they put strong pressure on India to make things return to normal, well, it could either work or not, each with its own set of consequences. I'm no international politics expert, thus I'd rather wait and see than make wild predictions, but this event still seems significant to me.


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18 Dec 2013, 4:50 pm

The issue is diplomatic immunity. Diplomatic immunity is vital.


This was cleary a breach of that.

So thank the NYPD for getting our diplomates working in India stripped of protection against both local laws and the locally lawless in that country.


Just be grateful that they picked a rather inncocuous country to screw up on.

India may be a strange place, but it is the world's largest democracy, and has the rule of law. So its like loosing DI in a west European country.

If they had done this to a Saudi, or a mainland Chinese diplomat,or a Chadian, the retribution would be having american diplomats being subject to local laws in those sorts of places(dictatorships, tribal warlords, or absolute monarchies). Much worse.



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18 Dec 2013, 9:10 pm

Back when they were not even their own country, they took down the British Empire, at the peak of it's power.

America has been playing on the China Team, India's rival, and Pakistan, who has launched a series of wars, and terror strikes.

When something comes up involving an employee of another country, it has always been brought to the attention of their Ambassador, and at the worst, they are declared Persona non grata, and told to leave.

India has asserted it's right to trade with Iran, and protested a Chinese Navel Base in Pakistan, that puts Chinese warships off it's coast.

India and Iran have long term interests in Afganistan.

India and China has long term overlaping trade interests in southeast Asia. China is making some big claims in the South China Sea, India supports the small countries who have equal claims.

All America has left besides China, who are playing them, is psycho Pakistan, with nukes. They are the most likely to use them, against India.

The NYPD does not arrest anyone for Visa Fraud. ICE, FBI, DOJ, it is Federal.

This insult came from Washington, was intentional.

India did put the British in The Black Hole of Calcutta, standing room only. It was revenge.

India has won their wars, The British, Japanese, Chinese, Pakistan several times, and it is where terrorists go to die.

At one seventh of the world population, with lots of international trade, they are not going to back down.

America is failing, India was a leading Iron, Steel, Brass producer, before there was an America.

History will win, it always does.



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19 Dec 2013, 2:54 pm

beneficii wrote:
staremaster wrote:
Sounds like the diplomat was a bit "arrogant" with her hired help, and preferred that her domestic servants exist outside of US law, so that they could be paid in spare change, as befits the lower castes.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/ ... NC20131217


I read elsewhere it was a cultural misunderstanding. The diplomat on top of that pay was providing free room and board in NYC to her domestic help. One can argue that the domestic help's effective pay was likely hire than the minimum wage, if you took the free room and board in NYC into account.


Wow. So you're saying that if the employer lived in very expensive surroundings then the servant could ACTUALLY OWE HER EMPLOYER MONEY FOR WORKING AND ABIDING THERE?

That doesn't make much sense does it??

NO, the real situation here is based on the Indian caste system and the special rights it affords those over the lowly born. The H. M.Ghandi tried to reform this situation but it persist today. These people REALLY BELIEVE THEY ARE INTITLED, so they try to pull off the same in the U.S. But they MUST obey our laws.

THAT BEING SAID, with over ten million (10,000,000) illegal aliens already in our country, AND AS FAR AS I KNOW NO FEMALES ARE REGULARILY STRIP SEARCHED, you have to wonder why this ONE women was selected for this demeaning treatment.



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19 Dec 2013, 3:50 pm

Excerpt from This CNN Article:

CNN wrote:
The diplomat's detention was handled by the U.S. Marshals Service, not New York police.

Bharara, the prosecutor, has defended the handling of the arrest and custody, though his office was not involved. "Khobragade was accorded courtesies well beyond what other defendants, most of whom are American citizens, are accorded," he said Wednesday. "She was not, as has been incorrectly reported, arrested in front of her children. The agents arrested her in the most discreet way possible, and unlike most defendants, she was not then handcuffed or restrained."

In addition, she was allowed to keep her phone and make calls to arrange personal matters, including child care, he said.

"Because it was cold outside, the agents let her make those calls from their car and even brought her coffee and offered to get her food. It is true that she was fully searched by a female deputy marshal -- in a private setting -- when she was brought into the U.S. Marshals' custody, but this is standard practice for every defendant, rich or poor, American or not, in order to make sure that no prisoner keeps anything on his person that could harm anyone, including himself. This is in the interests of everyone's safety.

"There can be no plausible claim that this case was somehow unexpected or an injustice," Bharara said. "In fact, the Indian government itself has been aware of this legal issue, and that its diplomats and consular officers were at risk of violating the law.

So, all you bleeding-hearts should ask yourselves this one question: "Is it for U.S. prosecutors to look the other way, ignore the law and the civil rights of victims; or is it the responsibility of the diplomats and consular officers and their government to make sure the law is observed?"

Maybe you should also ask why you all are so unconcerned for the housekeeper/nanny who was being paid about $150 per week, -- which is under the legal minimum wage established by law, and clearly a criminal act.

naturalplastic wrote:
The issue is diplomatic immunity. Diplomatic immunity is vital. This was cleary a breach of that.

Just so you know, Khobragade was actually a Consular Officer, and thus had only Consular Immunity at the time of her arrest -- she had no "Diplomatic Immunity" to be violated!! ! Consular immunity privileges are described in the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963 (VCCR). Consular immunity offers protections similar to diplomatic immunity, but these protections are not as extensive, given the functional differences between consular and diplomatic officers. For example, consular officers are not accorded absolute immunity from a host country’s criminal jurisdiction, they may be tried for certain local crimes upon action by a local court, and are immune from local jurisdiction only in cases directly relating to consular functions.

Get real, people; get the facts!



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19 Dec 2013, 4:11 pm

I hardly believe that should the mayor of N.Y.'s wife be arrested for some small detail (or any other local famous politician's spouse), that a strip search would have been ordered. I can't think of any logical reason why this was done.

This incident seems especially designed to embarrass and humiliate (without arguing the facts of the case) and I wonder what politics are involved.

If I were a promoter of spy/on/spy then I'd say it would be most advantageous to the Chinese if we were to have diplomatic difficulty with India.



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19 Dec 2013, 4:39 pm

India has every right to be outraged at the Obama Administration. Our allies are getting tired of Obama's BS. He snubs Netanyahu whenever he gets a chance, insults Britain, listen's to Merkel's phone calls, and now this with India. Meanwhile, he's willing to give away the store to Russia and Iran, our foes.



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19 Dec 2013, 5:11 pm

American wrote:
India has every right to be outraged at the Obama Administration. Our allies are getting tired of Obama's BS. He snubs Netanyahu whenever he gets a chance, insults Britain, listen's to Merkel's phone calls, and now this with India. Meanwhile, he's willing to give away the store to Russia and Iran, our foes.


You've just listed some of the reasons why I like Obama.

Had Romney been in charge, that Indian diplomat would probably have had an internal inspection with a NIGHTSTICK.


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19 Dec 2013, 5:15 pm

thomas81 wrote:
American wrote:
India has every right to be outraged at the Obama Administration. Our allies are getting tired of Obama's BS. He snubs Netanyahu whenever he gets a chance, insults Britain, listen's to Merkel's phone calls, and now this with India. Meanwhile, he's willing to give away the store to Russia and Iran, our foes.


You've just listed some of the reasons why I like Obama.

Had Romney been in charge, that Indian diplomat would probably have had an internal inspection with a NIGHTSTICK.


Romney couldn't offend our allies as much as Obama if he tried. Obama's incompetence and inability to tell the truth or keep a promise is astounding to say the least.



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19 Dec 2013, 5:15 pm

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/19/opini ... ?hpt=hp_c1


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thomas81
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19 Dec 2013, 5:19 pm

American wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
American wrote:
India has every right to be outraged at the Obama Administration. Our allies are getting tired of Obama's BS. He snubs Netanyahu whenever he gets a chance, insults Britain, listen's to Merkel's phone calls, and now this with India. Meanwhile, he's willing to give away the store to Russia and Iran, our foes.


You've just listed some of the reasons why I like Obama.

Had Romney been in charge, that Indian diplomat would probably have had an internal inspection with a NIGHTSTICK.


Romney couldn't offend our allies as much as Obama if he tried. Obama's incompetence and inability to tell the truth or keep a promise is astounding to say the least.

Uh huh. Cause GOP leaders have been reknowned for being paragons of honesty.

Its worth remembering that Romney was a member of the gang of financeers that caused the recession in the first place.


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19 Dec 2013, 6:32 pm

India harassing our diplomats is our "comeuppance"? Well that put us in our place!


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19 Dec 2013, 6:42 pm

Dox47 wrote:
India harassing our diplomats is our "comeuppance"? Well that put us in our place!


I do think India's reaction is unnecessary and childish. But Obama should never have started this. If only he would treat India the way he treats Russia, they would be happy.



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19 Dec 2013, 6:54 pm

Fnord wrote:
and watching its women get sold into 'marriage' and gang-raped in factories and on public transportation.


I love this about you Fnord, you get as angry at repressive patriarchal 'customs' as I do, and you're liberated from PC enough to say it.

I especially love the way you put 'marriage' in inverted commas. I often wonder if other people have had an empathy bypass because they never seem to notice the worst examples of inhumanity out there when they happen between people who aren't white.

Anyway, I do often disagree with you...this time about America. The USA is in decline, I think. This incident doesn't show the behaviour of the most dignified of nations (and the reaction to it doesn't, either.) But please never lose the vitriol that you have for some of the biggest oppressors in our world.


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19 Dec 2013, 8:21 pm

Dox47 wrote:
India harassing our diplomats is our "comeuppance"? Well that put us in our place!


The moment the security barriers were removed from your embassy in New Delhi it went too far.


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