Anyone else here interested in European history?

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Europe probably has the most interesting history, well that or Japan.

History is very interesting. Most importantly, we must learn from it, and never make the same mistakes again.

I couldn’t tell you much you wouldn’t find out through looking up “Elamites”, “Scythians” etc on wikipedia.

But there’s a bit of trivia about the Scythians that I find quite interesting – it relates to the theories of “British Israelism”. Basically, some people believe that the Saxons were descended from the Scythians.

Wikipedia – British Israelism

The teaching of British Israelism took off in the mid-19th century after the deciphering of the ancient rock inscription at Behistun in Persia, a type of 'Rosetta stone' written in three languages. On the rock, one of the kings of the nations that Darius the Great had subdued was the king of the 'Saka', or the Scythians — a name which sounds a little similar to Saxon, who are not widely thought to be the same people. In the Babylonian, the Saka were called the Gimirri; in the Assyrian language they were referred to as the Khumri (Cimmerians).

Some researchers have argued that both Celts and the Germans came from an area south-east of the Black Sea, and migrated westward to the coast of Europe, comparing the name of the Welsh for themselves, Cymry, with the name of the Cimmerians. The names Iberia for Spain, and Hibernia for Ireland are sometimes interpreted as evidence that the Habiru (Hebrews) traveled to and settled those areas.

Did you know that the Elamites are mentioned in Genesis as the offspring of Elam, son of Shem? Elam’s brothers include Ashur (father of the Assyrian people) and Aram (father of the Aramaean people).

When people speak of “the Persians” they usually mean the Achaemenid dynasty founded by Cyrus the Great. Cyrus’s ancestors ruled Parsumash, which was a vassal state of the Median empire. Cyrus overthrew their king Asytages and incorporated the Medes within his Persian empire.

And a bit of really useless trivia – the Medes make an appearance in Asterix and the Land of Black Gold. Asterix and Obelix are wandering through the desert, when they are successively attacked by Sumerians, Akkadians, Hittites and Assyrians, who mistake them for – in turn – Akkadians, Hittites, Assyrians and Medes. They are then approached by a group of Medes who ask them the way out of the desert. They reply "follow the arrows".

I love history and European is my favorite.
It's very interesting.

I'm Irish and the history of my own country is by far the most interesting to me. We've been overrun many times throughout history (By the Celts, the Normans, the Vikings, and the English). Also, during the 19th century we lost approximtely 3 million people either through death or emmigration (To the USA) to the Great Irish Famine. Our population still hasn't recovered to what it was back then.

On what criteria? They do have interesting histories, but so do other parts of the world.

Good point AlexandertheSolitary, and you're right: History - everywhere - is interesting. I wish I had knowledge of all civilisations and of all nations and how they came to be the nation they are today. It would be truly amazing to have all of that knowledge. Is there enough gray-matter in the brain for that though!?

I have read about some of the theories you mention. A link between the Scythians and the Celts seems plausible enough, possibly more distantly with Germanic peoples including the Saxons; I just did not find their attempts to prove a connection with the ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom of Israel (which had seceded under Jeroboam I from what became the kingdom of Judah/ Judea, the northern kingdom of Israel later being destroyed by the Assyrians).

Yes, I know that Elam is included amongst the progeny of Shem, one of Noah's sons and an ancestor of Abraham. Also I am aware about Aram (Syrians/Arameans) and Ashur (Assyrians). Elamite is apparently unrelated to either the Semitic or Indo-European language families (though Assyrian and other Akkadian - though not Sumerian - tongues and Aramaic definitely are Semitic. Probably irrelevant as the Genesis genealogy relates to ancestry; prior to Babel in the following chapter partition of languages had not yet taken place. A number of descendants of Ham, including Canaan and Cush, spoke tongues that later linguists would classify as Semitic, a term derived from Shem. Mizraim amongst the sons of Ham (Egypt) spoke a language not Semitic but arguably belonging to a broader Hamitico-Semitic (probably obsolete linguistic term) family. (obviously only Coptic is now derived from ancient Egyptian. Arabic, including the dialect that is the spoken language in Egypt today, is of course Semitic. Descendants of various sons of Abraham: Ishmael (by Hagar) Midian, Sheba etc. (sons or grandsons of Keturah, a wife subsequent to the birth of Isaac and to the death of Sarah) are linked to the Arabs. Sheba alternatively Yemen or Ethiopia (possibly more accurately Eritrea)

But the Scythians were descended from Ashkenaz, a son or grandson of Japheth, linked with "the isles of the Gentiles" (in terms of the Genesis account). No connection with the Ashkenazim, who were so called from living to this region and to its north, just as the Sephardim were named after Sepharad (Spain) though after the unjust expulsion under Ferdinand and Isabella many returned to the Middle East where other Jews had continued to live, some going to north Africa. No ancestral connection with Ashkenaz implied.

Indeed prior to Cyrus the Great the Persians were subservient to the Medes. Both spoke languages belonging to the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European family, (cognate with Sanskrit, more distantly related to other Indo-European tongues including representatives the Greek, Italic including Latin and its Romance descendants, Celtic, Slavonic, Baltic and Teutonic/Germanic branches) and were distinct from Elam, though the Elamites kingdoms of Susa and Anshan did come under Persian dominion (as did much of the rest of the world). Cyrus was king of Anshan before he threw off the Median suzereignty. Interestingly, Acts 2 still speaks of "Parthians, Medes and Elamites," (though not specifically Persians. Actually these are likely in the Acts context to be the places of residence of Diaspora Jews, unless those mentioned are God-fearers like the "converts to Judaism/proselytes" from Rome also mentioned in the passage. Incidentally, would the "Arabs" mentioned in proximity with the Cretans be Yemeni Jews?) The Parthians, distinct from but akin to the Persians, ruled much of the eastern part of what had been ruled by the Hellenistic Seleucid dynasty, one of the many kingdoms emerging after the death of Alexander III of Macedon, commonly called the Great, who had defeated the last of the Achaemenid kings, Darius III (not his Persian name, but a Latinate version of a Hellenised rendering (Darios) of a Persian name that eludes me at the moment - possibly something like Dyasharxthes).

A number of Indo-European peoples, to return to the Genesis account, appear to be Japhethites, including the Ionian Greeks (Javan) as well as Scythians (Ashkenaz). There is a prophecy in Genesis that the sons of Japheth will dwell in the tents of Shem, implying hopeful reconciliation. (I wish the curse on Ham had not been focussed on to provide a facile justification for the enslavement of African peoples, conveniently ignoring that Ham's son Canaan, not Cush, is named along with Ham in Noah's Curse, though Ham himself was the offender not Canaan). There is also a prophecy in Isaiah speaking of "Egypt my people, Assyria my son and Israel my inheritance." (I may have mixed Egypt and Assyria up there). Negative denunciations about God's own people may be relatively frequent in the prophetic works; positive comments on Gentiles seem much rarer (though note Jonah).

As far as this whole British Israelism thing is concerned, the only Biblical reference to Celts is in the New Testament Epistle of Saint Paul to the Galatians (Celts who had migrated from Gaul to Asia Minor (present day Turkey).

The Cymry-Cimmerian-Gimmiru thing is interesting though (as a link between the Celts and the Scythians, not with the Israelites) The Cimmerians were a people dwelling in the Crimea and possibly parts of what is now Turkey. They were supplanted by the Scythians in the former and by the Hittites (another Indo-European speaking people) in the latter. They (Cimmerians) also feature in Homer's Odyssey as a people living in perpetual darkness. They also feature in a completely different context in Stargate. Is Cymry not linked with Cymbrogi (something like "fellow country men"). The mediaeval Latin construct Cambria may be related. Interestingly, Irish mythology includes references to a number of people, including both the Tuatha De Danan and the Sons of Mil (Gaels) originating from Scythia (a bit vague though - Greece and Scythia not readily distinguished in these accounts) and invading Inisfail/Erin.

Thank you for your input, codarac. Apologies for the long post.

Last edited by AlexandertheSolitary on 18 Feb 2007, 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Your country does indeed have a fascinating history; I would be eager to learn more. At one point Ireland was the centre of a culture of great learning. I eagerly await further posts from you.

European history is very interesting and I love learning about it. Also, I love history!! ! I'm even minoring in it at college. My really interest right now is late-17th century England and world.

I'm interested in history from all parts of the world.

You hear a lot about Europe, but many regions not so much. India and China especially deserve more attention.

I would argue the same for the middle east as well. You hear a lot about it, but not much about how things progressed to that point. Not just because it's such a messed up situation, but I don't think people realize how much influence the middle east had on our culture.

should read up on the history of israel sometime...really interesting stuff.

It's been awhile, but Israel was brought up in my history class years and years ago.

Israel's history is impressive to say the least. It's easy to see how one could believe that god was on their side. (If you were one who believes in it. Frankly though, I think 'god did it' cheapens Israels accomplishments)

another fun point is nazi presence and influence in the middle east.


look up haj amin al-husseini.

I know that is true, nazi influences are strong in certain parts of the middle east. Though I can't figure out why, because nazi's were racist white (so-called) christian people and middle easterners aren't even white christians.
Of coarse then again the nazi SS had to take a secret blood oath to "lucifer" from what I've heard. I know Mussolini I think initially conquored North Africa and the middle east, then his forces collapsed and Hitler picked back up the piecies. Rommel and Paton had a series of legendary battles out there.

Nothing about the Nazis makes sense. Or supremacists anywhere really.