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LKL
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13 Feb 2014, 6:17 pm

thewhitrbbit wrote:
I believe there are certain crimes to which you don't deserve to live. Willful murder, forceful rape, rape of a child, large scale fraud/embellishment.

There are crimes that are so heinous that you don't deserve to live.

I agree with that.

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That said, there should be clear and convincing proof you committed the crime. If there is, you should be executed within 1 year of your sentence. Executions should be done by hanging, quickly and painlessly.

Unfortunately, evidence suggest that even requiring 'convincing proof' is not sufficient to prevent innocent people from being convicted and sentenced to death. Hanging is not painless, and probably not quick from the hanged person's perspective.

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They need to feel the pain their victims felt.

Strongly disagree. If someone tortures a victim to death, I do NOT want a state-paid torturer running around whose job it is to replicate that pain.

Some crimes deserve death, but in the absence of absolute certainty over who committed the crime, it is better to err on the side of life in prison than to risk executing an innocent person (which is effectively state-sponsored murder). The statistics show strong negative bias against men, ethnic minorities, and the poor, which means that the death penalty is not fairly and evenly applied; thus, even though some people *deserve* death, the penalty should be abolished.



GGPViper
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13 Feb 2014, 6:27 pm

thewhitrbbit wrote:
I believe inmates should be executed within a year of their sentence. If you don't have the evidence, life in prison.

I am very aware of the issues of executing an innocent person. Exactly why I believe we need a standard of evidence higher than reasonable doubt to execute. It needs to be clear and convincing. I would make a rule that no death penalty without DNA evidence.

When I talk about fraud, the reason I include it is because fraud can almost be a death sentence. Imagine the old lady who is defrauded out of her money, she now has no money to provide for herself.

I certainly would intent it more for Bernie Madoff level fraud.

First of all, "beyond reasonable doubt" is a higher standard of evidence than "clear and convincing".

Second of all, although no definitive source exists, several sources lists 98 percent certainty or higher as the standard of beyond reasonable doubt. DNA evidence is often conclusive only to the identity of the person who left the DNA at the crime scene. Here are several instances where DNA might not be conclusive inculpatory evidence:

Murder? He could be a bystander who tried to revive the victim after the attack, and pulled out the knife in his chest, thus leaving his DNA all over the place.
Rape? It could have been consensual sex, thus explaining DNA evidence from semen.
Mass school shooting resulting in 25 dead? He could have tried to pry the weapon from the hands of the *real* shooter when it went off in the struggle, thus explaining DNA evidence *and* gunshot residue on his hands.

If you raise the standards of evidence, then these scenarios have to be given greater weight in criminal proceedings, and thus more people would be acquitted.

Finally, demanding that individuals should be executed within a year of sentencing would increase the number of wrongful executions, as there would be less time to review flaws in the conviction.

To illustrate, *every single death row inmate exonerated by the Innocence Project* would have been executed if they had been executed within a year of sentencing, as they all served several years on Death Row after sentencing.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content ... enalty.php



GoonSquad
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13 Feb 2014, 7:13 pm

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Eighteen people have been proven innocent and exonerated by DNA testing in the United States after serving time on death row. They were convicted in 11 states and served a combined 229 years in prison – including 202 years on death row – for crimes they didn’t commit.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content ... enalty.php

That's all the reason anyone should need to oppose the death penalty.


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thewhitrbbit
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13 Feb 2014, 10:17 pm

You don't need a higher standard of evidence to convict. You need a higher standard of evidence to execute.

I can convict you of murder by beyond reasonable doubt, but if I want to execute you, I need a higher burden of evidence.

I would commute any death sentence that doesn't have DNA, and run all tests on anyone on death row. There is NO reason it takes 20 years to run some DNA tests.

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Strongly disagree. If someone tortures a victim to death, I do NOT want a state-paid torturer running around whose job it is to replicate that pain.


And I don't want that person getting free health care, free cable tv, free food, and regular family visits.



LKL
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13 Feb 2014, 10:45 pm

thewhitrbbit wrote:
You don't need a higher standard of evidence to convict. You need a higher standard of evidence to execute.


In the US, conviction and sentencing are two separate phases of a trial. Once someone is convicted, he is considered "guilty," not "probably guilty." At the sentencing phase, the jury is instructed: 'given that Mr. X committed crime A, should he be put to death?' Not, 'given that Mr. X had a 90% probability of having committed crime A,' or a 95% chance, or whatever. Once he's convicted, in other words, he is considered to have done the crime for the purposes of sentencing; evidence is no longer relevant, only the severity of the crime.



pawelk1986
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14 Feb 2014, 3:55 am

GGPViper wrote:
Although I have posted at length about my opposition to the death penalty (especially for crimes other than murder, like rape) I have recently come across another argument against it.

This, however, is specific to the United States, as it is a US tradition.

If one has the death penalty as a possible sentence, one needs to have a Death-Qualified Jury.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death-qualified_jury

From the Wiki link:

The indisputable source of all Truth wrote:
A death-qualified jury is a jury in a criminal law case in the United States in which the death penalty is a prospective sentence. Such a jury will be composed of jurors who:
  1. Are not categorically opposed to the imposition of capital punishment;
  2. Are not of the belief that the death penalty must be imposed in all instances of capital murder—that is, they would consider life imprisonment as a possible penalty.

The problem is that death-qualified juries are not representative of the population, which undermines the entire purpose of having a jury in the first place.

They are:

- More likely to convict (on the basis of the same facts)
- Less likely to be women
- Less likely to be minorities

... than a jury which is not selected for Death qualification. So, the existence of the death penalty introduces bias - and more importantly, lower standards of evidence than normal for conviction in those situations where a wrongful sentence would be irreversible.

Technically, one could choose *not* to qualify the jury for Death during jury selection, but then one would face a significant risk of jury nullification (acquittal despite belief of guilt). I believe many prosecutors are unwilling to take that risk.


In Poland we do not have juries, although I think that it was great if such an institution existed in Poland.

Instead of a jury, we have a panel of judges consisting of one professional judge and two lay judges, in cases punishable by life imprisonment, we have two professional judges and three of lay judges.

The role of of lay judges is similar to the role of the jury.



pawelk1986
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14 Feb 2014, 4:38 am

LKL wrote:
thewhitrbbit wrote:
I believe there are certain crimes to which you don't deserve to live. Willful murder, forceful rape, rape of a child, large scale fraud/embellishment.

There are crimes that are so heinous that you don't deserve to live.

I agree with that.

Quote:
That said, there should be clear and convincing proof you committed the crime. If there is, you should be executed within 1 year of your sentence. Executions should be done by hanging, quickly and painlessly.

Unfortunately, evidence suggest that even requiring 'convincing proof' is not sufficient to prevent innocent people from being convicted and sentenced to death. Hanging is not painless, and probably not quick from the hanged person's perspective.

Quote:
They need to feel the pain their victims felt.

Strongly disagree. If someone tortures a victim to death, I do NOT want a state-paid torturer running around whose job it is to replicate that pain.

Some crimes deserve death, but in the absence of absolute certainty over who committed the crime, it is better to err on the side of life in prison than to risk executing an innocent person (which is effectively state-sponsored murder). The statistics show strong negative bias against men, ethnic minorities, and the poor, which means that the death penalty is not fairly and evenly applied; thus, even though some people *deserve* death, the penalty should be abolished.


You write about ethnic minorities, does the fact that the offender belongs to the minority means that he should have some special favors, probably not.

I believe that justice should be the same for all regardless of whether someone is rich or poor, whether it is a Pole, a German, an American, a Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, White or Black

fortunately Poland is quite homogeneous state.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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14 Feb 2014, 4:47 am

As long as DNA is admitted as state's evidence, it should be up to the state what to do and if they choose to kill so be it.
If the evidence is circumstantial yet the jury convicts anyway the death penalty should be off the table imo because the only smoking gun is DNA evidence unless there's a video showing exactly what happened, as in surveillance.



LKL
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14 Feb 2014, 5:51 am

pawelk1986 wrote:
You write about ethnic minorities, does the fact that the offender belongs to the minority means that he should have some special favors, probably not.

I believe that justice should be the same for all regardless of whether someone is rich or poor, whether it is a Pole, a German, an American, a Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, White or black.


That would definitely be the case in an ideal world. However, in the US legal system, and especially in death penalty cases (see the note above about 'death qualified' juries for one of the reasons why), men, ethnic minorities, and the poor are statistically all judged more harshly than women, ethnic majorities, and the wealthy.