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AZ SB 1062 discrimination against LGBT

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Kraichgauer
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23 Feb 2014, 12:18 am

auntblabby wrote:
how could any businessman be so stupid as to turn down money from paying customers? money is colorblind and asexual. :scratch:


The operative word here is stupid. So, I imagine a lot would.


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auntblabby
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23 Feb 2014, 12:19 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
how could any businessman be so stupid as to turn down money from paying customers? money is colorblind and asexual. :scratch:


The operative word here is stupid. So, I imagine a lot would.

that is akin to "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face."



Kraichgauer
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23 Feb 2014, 12:39 am

auntblabby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
how could any businessman be so stupid as to turn down money from paying customers? money is colorblind and asexual. :scratch:


The operative word here is stupid. So, I imagine a lot would.

that is akin to "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face."


Well, we'll be able to tell the intolerant bigots from everyone else - by the fact that they've mutilated their own faces. :lol:


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auntblabby
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23 Feb 2014, 12:48 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
how could any businessman be so stupid as to turn down money from paying customers? money is colorblind and asexual. :scratch:


The operative word here is stupid. So, I imagine a lot would.

that is akin to "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face."


Well, we'll be able to tell the intolerant bigots from everyone else - by the fact that they've mutilated their own faces. :lol:

"May those who love us love us
and those who do not loves us,
may God turn their hearts,
and if He cannot turn their hearts
may he turn their ankles,
that we may know them by their limping." Irish prayer



Kraichgauer
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23 Feb 2014, 1:21 am

auntblabby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
how could any businessman be so stupid as to turn down money from paying customers? money is colorblind and asexual. :scratch:


The operative word here is stupid. So, I imagine a lot would.

that is akin to "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face."


Well, we'll be able to tell the intolerant bigots from everyone else - by the fact that they've mutilated their own faces. :lol:

"May those who love us love us
and those who do not loves us,
may God turn their hearts,
and if He cannot turn their hearts
may he turn their ankles,
that we may know them by their limping." Irish prayer


Indeed!


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Dox47
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23 Feb 2014, 1:27 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
What of the customers rights? Do the rights of the owners trump theirs?


What rights? If someone is in business, you think they should be forced at gunpoint to do business with people against their will? Why does operating a business suddenly deprive someone of their rights of freedom of association and speech? You might have noble goals in mind, but that does not justify the means which you intend to enforce them with.


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Dox47
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23 Feb 2014, 1:29 am

auntblabby wrote:
how could any businessman be so stupid as to turn down money from paying customers? money is colorblind and asexual. :scratch:


Exactly, which is why this particular type of intrusion into people's private business is both unjustified and redundant, as good business already dictates the desired results.


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Kraichgauer
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23 Feb 2014, 1:32 am

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
What of the customers rights? Do the rights of the owners trump theirs?


What rights? If someone is in business, you think they should be forced at gunpoint to do business with people against their will? Why does operating a business suddenly deprive someone of their rights of freedom of association and speech? You might have noble goals in mind, but that does not justify the means which you intend to enforce them with.


So requiring white owned businesses in the civil rights era south to serve black patrons was wrong?


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23 Feb 2014, 1:50 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
What of the customers rights? Do the rights of the owners trump theirs?


What rights? If someone is in business, you think they should be forced at gunpoint to do business with people against their will? Why does operating a business suddenly deprive someone of their rights of freedom of association and speech? You might have noble goals in mind, but that does not justify the means which you intend to enforce them with.


So requiring white owned businesses in the civil rights era south to serve black patrons was wrong?


Look forward to hearing Dox's response to that one...That should be good



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23 Feb 2014, 2:19 am

The bill was written in the context of religious freedom, but where exactly is the line?

Our Constitution is very abstract. I think the laws would be much more manageable if the Constitution were written like a computer program, with lots of if-then statements.

@Khaoz, to answer your question about the Red Guy, he's a character on "Cow and Chicken", an late 1990s cartoon.


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Dox47
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23 Feb 2014, 3:18 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
So requiring white owned businesses in the civil rights era south to serve black patrons was wrong?


Counterproductive is the word I would use, as the symptom, segregation, was treated, rather than attacking the disease, bigotry. Think of the Balkans, where "get along or else!" kept the peace until the "or else" part went away, at which point everyone started killing each other again. You also seem to conveniently forget the part where the government in the South was the source of the Jim Crowe laws that caused much of the oppression, without which market forces would have much more easily lead to tolerance through business, rather than being legally prohibited from doing so. Look at all the racism still bubbling beneath the surface today; for all you know, a more hands off approach very well may have taken a little longer but gone deeper, rather than the facade of tolerance that is all too common today.


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23 Feb 2014, 5:04 am

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
So requiring white owned businesses in the civil rights era south to serve black patrons was wrong?


Counterproductive is the word I would use, as the symptom, segregation, was treated, rather than attacking the disease, bigotry. Think of the Balkans, where "get along or else!" kept the peace until the "or else" part went away, at which point everyone started killing each other again. You also seem to conveniently forget the part where the government in the South was the source of the Jim Crowe laws that caused much of the oppression, without which market forces would have much more easily lead to tolerance through business, rather than being legally prohibited from doing so. Look at all the racism still bubbling beneath the surface today; for all you know, a more hands off approach very well may have taken a little longer but gone deeper, rather than the facade of tolerance that is all too common today.


So why can't you just say it's wrong?



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23 Feb 2014, 9:21 am

cyberdad wrote:
So why can't you just say it's wrong?


Because the question I was asked required a nuanced answer to accurately convey my opinion. Critical thinking and nuance are useful things, you really should acquaint yourself with them.

Also, when your obvious trap fails, you don't get a do over and get to ask for your bait back, that's not how this works.


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23 Feb 2014, 9:33 am

If you want to run a business that discriminates against people, just run it as a private club. If you are open to the public, then you lose the right to discriminate against people on the basis of fundamental traits. No one's private property rights are infringed, because a public accommodation is no longer private property.



Dox47
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23 Feb 2014, 3:44 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
If you want to run a business that discriminates against people, just run it as a private club. If you are open to the public, then you lose the right to discriminate against people on the basis of fundamental traits. No one's private property rights are infringed, because a public accommodation is no longer private property.


You're begging the question here, stating that being open to the public causes you to lose your right of freedom of association without actually providing a rationale, simply asserting it as true. Last I checked, running a business on private property does not affect ownership of said property, so yes, private property rights are being infringed upon by these laws.


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23 Feb 2014, 4:08 pm

You need to check again. A public accommodation is fundamentally different from private property in many ways under the law. This comes from the fact that a store is fundamentally different in practice than a private home or clubhouse. Ignoring that difference makes no sense.

No one is forcing anyone to open a business that is a public accommodation, so no freedoms have been lost.