I don't get this gun culture

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thomas81
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07 May 2014, 6:17 am

Stannis wrote:

zer0netgain wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Bad analogy. Every other developed society in the world does not feel the need to carry concealed weapons everywhere they go yet still encounter problems with fires, burst tyres or torn clothing.

I think Americans think they are living inside an FPS game or something,

Last I checked, "gun free" places like UK and Australia have skyrocketing crime problems and even are considering "knife bans" because potential victims are now carrying blades for self-defense.

Disarming the law abiding isn't protecting them from the predators.

Australia is becoming totalitarian. Google the Northern Territory intervention, and Queensland anti-biker laws for a couple of damning examples of it.

The government in Australia is encroaching on peoples lives for all the wrong reasons it seems.

I wouldnt look to the Australian government for a model to run anything, frankly. They've always been reactionary pseudo-fascist bullies.

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thomas81
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07 May 2014, 6:22 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:

People always talk about the second amendment as if that is some sort of argument.

I'm not a huge fan of our constitution and especially the second amendment in particular. People are crazy and they just never will get it. I suppose you just have to accept that people will never get it.

its still scary that the largest economy in the world still has this almost-medieval villagers and pitchfork paranoia about their own neighbours.

Where america differs is that their people fear their government. They should never have allowed that to happen. In Europe, the government fears the people. Thats why European countries have protective economic policies, particularly universal health care.

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zer0netgain
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07 May 2014, 8:32 am

thomas81 wrote:

zer0netgain wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

In developed countries where guns are banned, gun deaths are a twentieth of what they are in the United States.

You and another poster are guilty of using selective evidence to come to a false conclusion.

I said skyrocketing crime rates, which I've seen the numbers prove as true, but citing a decline in HOMICIDES or GUN VIOLENCE is a false argument. It's only one factor of the equation.

If banning guns (which account for 20%) of crimes results in an increase of all other crime by 500%, you don't have an overall reduction in violent crime.

Even by the FBI's own numbers, we have 10 times the violent crime with "edged weapons" than all firearms combined, but you don't see any proposal for "knife control." Compared to knives, guns are not the problem.

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07 May 2014, 11:58 am

zer0netgain wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

zer0netgain wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

In developed countries where guns are banned, gun deaths are a twentieth of what they are in the United States.

And (sorry I don't remember where I read it :oops:

) but blunt weapons such as baseball bats used as murder weapons outnumber everything else. Just not as dramatic.

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07 May 2014, 12:11 pm

And for anyone who thinks the chance of having to actually use a gun is so slight as to be beneath consideration:

When you go out in the car do you buckle your seat belt? Do you insist others buckle their belts? Do you make sure the children (if any) have their safety devices properly secured? Why?

Because this is the same sense of safety and care that gun owners feel. We aren't expecting an eminent disaster but we certainly want to be ready should one arise. And they can and do arise. We think this makes us responsible citizens.

We understand not everyone is mentally or physically suited to undertake such a task and most of us are not enamored by the cost and difficulty involved.

I'm sure there are many gun owners that feel differently, but the people I know think along the same lines as myself.

thomas81
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07 May 2014, 12:47 pm

zer0netgain wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

zer0netgain wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

In developed countries where guns are banned, gun deaths are a twentieth of what they are in the United States.

As i said and you failed to tackle, theres no evidence that criminals in anti gun countries are 'compensating' through an increase in bladed weapon usage.

It takes far more intent to kill someone with a bladed weapon than with a gun.

People dont commit crimes because they are inherently evil. Most crimes are commited with economic factors at the roots of the motives. Rather than focussing on putting guns into the hands into a non existant demographic of 'good' people it is better that nobody can easilly access them.

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sliqua-jcooter
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07 May 2014, 3:28 pm

mezzanotte wrote:

Smart guns are gaining popularity among some gun owners, but of course the traditional gun manufacturers and lobbyists are slinging their anti-smart gun propaganda because it is a threat to their businesses.

Actually, they're opposed to it because there are laws on the books that say that the first instance of any kind of "smart gun" technology going on sale, it will become the only type of gun that can be sold.

The current iteration of such guns don't even work well.

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sliqua-jcooter
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07 May 2014, 3:34 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Intent is binary - you either intend to kill someone or you don't.

Quote:

People dont commit crimes because they are inherently evil. Most crimes are commited with economic factors at the roots of the motives.

It is exactly this mechanism that I am counting on when I choose to carry. Why would a criminal who is motivated by economic factors even choose a target that he knows is just as well armed as himself, when it is far easier to simply go elsewhere and choose another target.

Quote:

Rather than focussing on putting guns into the hands into a non existant demographic of 'good' people it is better that nobody can easilly access them.

Sure. The problem is you can't snap your fingers and get rid of all the guns that already exist. So, given a choice between the two, the much more feasible option is to make gun ownership available to those people who have not demonstrated criminal intent.

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07 May 2014, 3:54 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Intent is binary - you either intend to kill someone or you don't.

Quote:

People dont commit crimes because they are inherently evil. Most crimes are commited with economic factors at the roots of the motives.

Quote:

Rather than focussing on putting guns into the hands into a non existant demographic of 'good' people it is better that nobody can easilly access them.

Hmm. It takes intent over a longer period of time. In a flash of I-want-to-kill-this-person, you can pull a trigger in the time it would take to lift a foot off the ground in your first step toward your intended knife victim.

I think it is very hard for someone like me, outside of a gun culture like the US, to even consider the need to carry a weapon. I mean, do those who don't carry (or even own) a gun have the same worry over maybe needing one as those who do? I've lived in some fairly rough places, and it's never occured to me I might need to carry a weapon of any sort.

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07 May 2014, 4:19 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

Intent is binary - you either intend to kill someone or you don't.

Quote:

People dont commit crimes because they are inherently evil. Most crimes are commited with economic factors at the roots of the motives.

Quote:

Rather than focussing on putting guns into the hands into a non existant demographic of 'good' people it is better that nobody can easilly access them.

In the U.S. we had a movement at one time dedicated to taking legally owned property from companies and individuals because it was believed people couldn't be trusted and the government in all it's humanity and humility knew best. This was called Prohibition and it lasted for about ten years, and caused untold damage. I'd suggest Wikipedia for details.

The thought of the likley parallel with guns replacing alcohol is not one I like to contemplate, but rest assured there would be disaster. NO THANKS!

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07 May 2014, 4:28 pm

This is riveting to listen to. If you live in a violent place, why not try finding out why people are doing stuff like this, and then try turning your culture into one in which people are kind to each other and you don't have to worry constantly about being murdered. It's never going to change if the only way people respond to it is by getting armed to the teeth and developing a siege mentality.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk0aqyMltRA[/youtube]

Last edited by Stannis on 07 May 2014, 6:00 pm, edited 5 times in total.

trollcatman
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07 May 2014, 4:30 pm

ZenDen wrote:

You can apply this Prohibition-style thinking to just about anything: can people be trusted with alcohol? Unhealthy food? Tobacco? Guns? Knives?
Why deny target shooters their hobby just because some gangster does something stupid with his gun? Why deny cooks their cutlery because someone does something stupid with a knife?

sliqua-jcooter
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07 May 2014, 4:36 pm

Hopper wrote:

If I went and pulled the trigger of my gun right now, it would put a nice shiny hole...in my floor. You're (either deliberately or unintentionally) skipping a handful of steps in the process of shooting someone to try to prove that distinction. You need to draw your weapon and pull it on target before you can pull the trigger and actually end a life - which is much the same action as drawing a knife and positioning it to stab the person. And you can actually draw a knife and position it *while* closing the gap, so there is no real difference from a physical perspective.

In fact, when I took my first defensive pistol class I was taught (and demonstrated) that a knife-wielding attacker can almost always attack before someone carrying a gun can draw and fire at distances up to 21 feet.

Quote:

I think it is very hard for someone like me, outside of a gun culture like the US, to even consider the need to carry a weapon. I mean, do those who don't carry (or even own) a gun have the same worry over maybe needing one as those who do? I've lived in some fairly rough places, and it's never occured to me I might need to carry a weapon of any sort.

Then don't carry a weapon. But don't pretend like that has any validity on the argument over whether people should be allowed to carry a weapon if they so choose. Just because you don't see the need doesn't mean that someone else doesn't.

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07 May 2014, 4:58 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

Hopper wrote:

It depends on readiness and distance, obviously. I have in mind a situation where the weapon is raised at me but there's a stand-off of a good few feet. Up close, if someone is able to shoot me by surprise, they're able to stab me by surprise.

Knifeman comes at me, I can back off and run, even have a go at hand to hand combat. Gunman pulls the trigger, not so much. The intent takes a moment for the gun holder. They can regret it all they like after it's passed, I've still been shot. The knife holder can go to take a step toward me, and that moment of intent can pass. For them to come at me and try to stab me takes a more prolonged period of intent.

Quote:

Sorry, I'll be clearer. I think for most people in the UK, the idea of carrying any sort of weapon in self defence just seems odd. Not out of some willingness to be a victim, or distaste for violence or such, but because it simply doesn't seem necessary. I was actually trying to establish the different psychology at work here, wondering what it would be like to live in that kind of psychological state. I haven't threatened to take anyone's weapons away. I think you make a good point that the US is simply awash in guns - the horse has long bolted and is on its merry way.

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Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.

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07 May 2014, 7:00 pm

billiscool wrote:

Ok,I can understand someone working at 7-11 or someone living a dangerous area to carry a gun with them.Why do people in safe
area need to carry gun with them.

Could it be that the safe areas are safe because there are a lot of people carrying guns?
If you were going to do an armed robbery of a business, a car-jacking, mugging, B&E on a residence, etc.. where would you rather do it; Massachusets (very anti-gun) or Arizona (very pro-gun)?

Quote:

I think alot of pro gun people are people with big ego and trying to ''stick to the man''
it's like ''ha,ha look at me I got a gun, take that government,second amendment, yeah guns''

Learn a little about what your trying to talk about why dont ya.
:roll:

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07 May 2014, 7:01 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Do you own a fire extinguisher? A first aid kit? Perhaps a spare tire? Does owning any of the items I mentioned make someone "paranoid", or imply that they're looking to encounter a fire, be injured, or damage their tires, respectively? Further, does the person who owns such precautionary devices know when they're going to need them, or do they keep them where they're most likely to be used, when they're most likely to be useful?

Ah yeah, the tired old "civilized society" reasoning.
:roll:

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