Judaism?

Post Reply New Topic

I posted on this topic in October http://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=268150&p=6284386#p6284386.

MaxE, friedmacguffins, LonelyJar, screwywabbit:

Members of the tribe? Hello! glad to see you! i'm a secular/reconstructionist Jew. im kinda observant my way, dont speak much Hebrew but i do know a few Yiddish words and phrases. also interested in my geneology and background. went to a JDS for a while as a kid. i dont keep kosher anymore but i think that whole thing is BS anyway.

as for me, i am very passionate about my Jewish identity and i find this whole thing about Christians pretending to be Jews in order to convert us very offensive. i get enough of that from genuine Christians. if you want to knock on my door to tell me the "good news about Jesus Christ" i wont be rude to you, i just wont listen to you.

in my view Messianic Jews, Jews for Jesus, Judeochristians, whatever they call themselves, are not real Jews. they are either fake, deluded, hypocrites, or dont understand the tenets of either Christianity or Judaism. because the main difference between the two faiths means that there is no possible way for a person to be both Jewish and Christian at the same time. Jesus is not a Jewish concept, thats all there is to it.

also, i wasnt intending this thread to be about that, so i'm kinda disappointed that that's where it led.

What about Canaanites for Moses? Sumerians for Abraham?

If you are such as secularist Jew, specifically "re-constructionist", then why do you have a problem with the idea of people who identify with both Judaism, and Jesus? Isn't it all a pick 'n' mix?

You are free to be offended, as long as you know there is no freedom against being offended.

Historically specially those that followed very early Christianity, would have had much more in common with Judaism, than modern Christianity. Bare in mind much of modern Jewish identity didn't exist. Especially all Talmudic ideas.

Personally I believe that such as movement, call it the "Jesus movement", the purpose was more political than religious. It was a brilliant piece of subversion. These Jews, the lowliest, needed some way to push back against the corrupt local Jewish rulers and Roman rule.

I think those different groups of Christian Jews mean to say they are ethnically Jewish, but their religion is Christianity and not Judaism. I'm an atheist so I understand the annoyance with the preachers. That's one of the positive things about Judaism, if you are not a Jew they don't try to make you one.

My cousin is a Jew.
I myself like some ancient Jewish Hymns and I do study the Torah in depth... or at least parts of it.

There isn't really a Jewish ethnicity. There is no reason to assume Ethiopian Jews are the lost Dan tribe for example.

There are Jewish ethnic groups, which can be distinct in their own right, and group related to some of the other groups.

The lack or minimization of converts, was due to persecution. Different minorities handle persecution differently.

The Druze for example have a policy of superficial assimilation as a cloak. Some Jewish sect basically stop converting except in exceptional circumstances, other allowed it but practically it was very unlikely/or difficult. Also the connection to the matriarchal line has always been emphasized. So it is important that those within the faith marry in the faith, especially men. Orthodox women are expected to marry someone already in the faith.

Often that iS the case. People are proud of Jewish ethnicity, but are Christian in faith. But sometimes they do have more of an agenda. That WPer I was talking about had a quote in the permanent space beneath his posts (the 'signature', or whatever they call it) that went "Judaism, and Christianity are seperate religions only in peoples' minds, but not in the Bible" meaning (presumably) that you can't stop at the Old Testament (hear THAT fellow Jews?). And thats the sort of thing he would argue in the PPR occasionally. In fact he would spar with an "atheist" Jew over the idea.

Not being Jewish I dont have a dog in the fight. But his logic seemed flawed to me: the New Testament was reverse engineered to fit in with old testament after the fact. So ofcouse they go together. Likewise 15 centuries later the Book of Mormon was reverse engineered to fit into both the OT and the NT. So by his logic all Jews have to become christians, and all christians AND Jews have no choice but to become Mormons!

Ethnicity is more than just common descent. There are many people that identify as Jewish but are not observant, or not religious. It's also about a common culture.
And Judaism is not an evangelical religion. Only the Jewish people need to keep the covenant, the other peoples of the world can do what they want. That is not the case in Christianity and Islam which claim to be universal.

this is true. finally, someone knowledgeable about Judaism. a few things are just indisputable. Judaism IS an ethnicity. there's a lot of disagreement about this within the Jewish community itself: culture, religion, ethnicity, people: what are we? i say we are a civilization, which is the Reconstructionist point of view. most Jews disagree with that.

by the way, Reconstructionist Judaism is a sect. i dont feel like explaining, and i dont feel qualified anyway, so here ya go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructionist_Judaism

i think Jews are a unique people in this world. i'll be accused of playing the victim, but i'll say it anyway. we are less than 1% of the world's population. (true, we're not the only ethnic group that is like that, but for a major world religion it's shocking.) Jews also have a unique history. 2,000 years of persecution, dispersion, and constancy. other peoples massacred us countless times in the past. we even have a fast day just to commemorate all the tragedies in Jewish history.

and yet, when we fall down, we get back up. i guess thats why Jewish humor (Adam Sandler, Jerry Seinfeld, Mel Brooks, etc) is all about making fun of yourself. Oy, i'm a schmuck. Who cares. Life sucks, let's laugh at it. that's why IM SO PROUD TO BE A JEW. AM YISRAEL CHAI! (translation: long live the jewish people)

Why? It doesn't make any sense to be proud of something you had nothing to do with. You should only be proud of things you personally have achieved.

I have no problem with someone being proud of belonging to a certain ethnic or religious group, as long as they don't denigrate others... or hold a grudge for something (such as for Luther's Antisemitic writings at the end of his life, when his mental health followed his physical decline).

I would call it indifference rather than ignorance. Most people have other things to care about. I wouldn't find it too shocking.

[quote="Kraichgauer"][quote="Kraichgauer"][quote="skysaw"][quote="QueenSillyGoose"]

Sorry, double post.

Yeah, it's probably ignorance because they don't really care. I remember an anecdote from an interview with Arthur Miller, who visited Italy with an Italian friend of his. They visited the Italian guy's mom, and she told Miller she was Catholic, and asked what he was. The Italian friend said "He's Hebrew, you know, the people from the Bible" and she said "Ooooh, well... as long as they believe in Christ".

! !! !!