Are we too fatalistic?

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I think there is a great tendency [at least in the US that I have observed, I can not comment on anything elsewhere], to try to suppress people who want to achieve and who are not deterred by initial failure. These people don't see initial failure as failure- they often see it as a practice run, a step closer to their goal.

Maybe I am trying to speak for a lot of people- I mean, that's actually how I tend to think. If you screw up, well then you are closer to figuring out what WILL work. You've eliminated one possible solution, on to the next one!
I think there are situations that are very very difficult to transcend, and I think often we are given mixed messages:
"If you just work hard, you can achieve anything" but at the same time so many things are simply deemed "unrealistic" for this individual or that individual.

In the US, it is not true that hard work-only- will bring anything. There is a certain amount of fortune involved. That shouldn't deter us but we need to be realistic. I think it gets hard when [I'll use myself as an example] we have sort of run our entire course of options, even pulled some unexpected resources out of nowhere, and people cling to this "american dream" idea.

Not everyone can achieve it.
But I don't think we can look at our situation and determine who can. And I don't think it can possibly be determined by where you start- I simply think that if you want to get to your goals, you may have to make extraordinary sacrifices- maybe lose your family, uproot yourself entirely, change who you are. And that is not really part of the whole "work hard and achieve your dreams" narrative.

Even after you've gone all in, too, everything could collapse. There are few "safety nets" in the US, meaning all the hard work you put in rarely will equal what you get if catastrophe strikes. We have insurance and social security, but it really is not an equal or substantial trade off. And what really is if you suddenly can't do what you planned anyway? I mean, i'm not sure any kind of system can repair that totally.

Um... this ended up way longer than I intended. But there are a lot of people in the states who THINK they have worked very hard for where they are- and don't get me wrong, they have worked, but their way was partially paved. And so this adds to the "work hard enough and you can do anything" idea... that never really pans out. I think we advertise that as the "american way" but I think very few people believe that and carry it as a core belief, and so settle for whatever is put in front of them. We don't have winners anymore either- we have soccer matches where "everyone wins".
So who is going to try that hard? What are you working for? So many people seem ok with "good enough" and want to push you down if you aren't ok with that. I do think there has been a loss of value in aiming to transcending ones circumstance. "Why bother risking it?"

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ha. maybe I missed the point here.

Maybe I'm crazy (per Einstein's definition), but I seem destined to always be hopeful while rolling that same stone up that hill, every time it rolls back down. Sometimes it gets me down, but I'm usually optimistic.

Yep... crazy.

Success stories sell. You never read about the people that failed, lost everything, kept trying and buried themselves deeper with each try. Or the ones whose wife said, "You've put us into the poor house, now get a real job!"


Nope.. right on target.

mmm... I can relate. So I mean I'm trying to learn to change my goals. Still have them, still make them worth while. Um... but that gets harder as life situation changes. Good news? As situation improves, one can always up the goals too I suppose...
But yeah I think if you don't crop or adjust the goals that's kind of where you might start to doom yourself.

For me anyway. It's hard to figure out what is realistic, what is out of reach, what is selling yourself short. ...what's enough to keep you motivated.

Funny the other night I was feeling really extraordinarily discouraged and looking through depictions of Sysiphus.

RE: Einstein's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over and looking for different results"... my joke about that is so often that is science also.

I'm fairly optimistic most of the time.

I think this song is quite relevant to this topic:


Anyway, I have another name for being fatalistic; it's called being a realist. I am a realist, and I think the world is a horrible, disgusting place. It's what we've got though, so we may as well try to enjoy it.

I mean... I'm probably not exactly a realist. I don't see things for how they are, strictly and that's it. I do want to see things for how they COULD be and in a positive way. But I'm not an optimist in the way that I think it's ok to say to myself "Well, I will ho to bed and tomorrow will just HAPPEN and hopefully it will just magically be better!" [and frankly I don't let my loved ones get away with that either- but that's between me and those I care about]
...so I say I believe in like, constructive optimism. Not this thing where you just "think positively", because you should think positively, yeah.. but you need a plan. You have to look at what your options are, and you have to work on one step at a time. If it's all just too overwhelming you reduce everything down to whatever it is you CAN do.

I don't know... I mean that's kind of how I'm like, surviving right now, really.
I figure if I can get downstairs I'll go from there. So, i get down stairs to the kitchen and see what I can accomplish. If I think of everything I feel like I NEED to get done I would never get out of bed.

And, though that's a day by day or even hour by hour thing- I have applied it in a larger sense at times.
I mean the world is kind of crappy and life can potentially hand you sh*t on a shingle but... ya know, that's also fertilizer if you use it right. It doesn't smell good but not much hard work does.

...this whole conversation kind of hits home for me because right now I'm fighting this whole idea where I can't set any goals anymore. So, really... put these ideas out there is more about me sending out like... constructive ideas and less about preaching or anything. When I tel people things they are more "real" and make them easier to see as something I can stick to and hold up.

[Blahblahblah. therapeutic conversation ranting nonsense. sorry, carry on]

I know I'm fatalistic. Too many failures, whether big or small, can put a frown on your face when you can't see anything good coming out of them. One million times burned, one-million-and-one times shy. Of course, I try not to let my bad mood sour anyone else's day; that would just make me feel even worse about myself.

It's intellectual snobbery to use obscure words such as obfuscating when you really could have used baffling, bewildering or complicating. Talk of creating hierarchial barriers

"Obfruscating" is the right word here--it implies a "blockage," a "leaden barrier." The other words don't give the essence of what I was saying.

Also, I was also being slightly ironic at the same time. Yes, I did see the irony LOL

It's interesting how this exchange fits right in with what Narrator is talking about. We can complain about an intellectual hierarchy or we can try to reach a new level of understanding.

I happen to like kraftiekortie's use of language! I feel that it makes me a better person when I can quickly tab over to a dictionary site and look up a word I don't know - instantly smarter!

To me writing is an art. I don't like irony much. It's a form of contempt.
Seems the mockery is more important than getting the message accross clearly to those whose vocabulary is not as extensive as yours.
English is not my mother tongue. I never learned it proper either beyond the parroting of irregular verbs and learning to use a Thesaurus proper. My studies were in botany and a brush with social sciences.
So I like to keep it simple. And sometimes that means having to rephrase whole paragraphes to keep whatever I write accessible. Which is exactly what you could have done. But obviously it don't come natural and you prefer to use language as an indicator of some kind. Seems like to me anyway.

I don't actually think my vocabulary's that great.

I was mocking intellectual pretention. I was being ironic about it. I don't see the problem, frankly.

Do read most of my 9,000 some-odd posts, please. You'll see that I keep it "simple/stupid" (to use an often-stated phrase used by editors).

You want to "hear" something ironic:

I am frequently ignored because I write too simply--I don't write "intellectual" enough.

By the way: you still want to hang out?

I know it does. Still trying to get my head around the OP though. Words don't always come easy, especially not when emotion drives them.
First thought was that some are just content and don't seem to have this 'need' to prove themselves beyond themselves as it were. I never did. No idea why but I consider it a human right to live a simple life should I choose to do so. I am a trades person, I worked with my hands and am proud of that. So what if I had the intelligence to do better and achieve more? More by whom's standards?

To "try to reach a new level of understanding" is not done by forcing your standards upon others. That's coercion to me. By making you reach for an online dictionary you are complying with kraftiekortie's needs to express himself on his terms. He said himself he was being ironic. In other words mocking you.
Sorry kraftiekortie don't mean to lay into you here but such a good example I can't help but use it
And no, I don't think you are an intellectual snob because of your use of the word obfuscating so no worries. Anything else I think would be beyond the scope of this.
I had this thought though. You Americans are a funny lot. Yes, you are welcome to discover the delights of Belgian chips as eaten by the locals, there's a wicked eatery in the next village

I wasn't mocking anybody. I was mocking a "thing"--intellectual pretention.

You're not correct in this.

Just because somebody doesn't agree with me doesn't mean I'll become a fatalist.

I'm not going to concede my right to attempt to be humorous. Life is too serious all round for me to be serious all time.

Actually: I'm not that bright. I don't even have a nursery-school level of French, Flemish, or Dutch.

There are some people who use philosophical language. I'm not well-versed in philosophical language. I get the dictionary so I could learn the terms. I'm not well-versed in a lot of things.

I only use a certain word if the particular word conveys exactly what I'm trying to say.

I'm not trying to show off my knowledge. Compared to many people here, I'm not knowledgeable.

to use an American expression: You're barking up the wrong tree.