Accusations of abuse to stifle dissent

Post Reply New Topic

You'll have to forgive me, what are the views in need of change? I don't think I've ever met anyone in favor of paying women less for the same work. Although, I'm from the country that has the worlds only feminist foreign policy, whatever that means, so that might be it.

Women do not earn 77 cents to a mans dollar, the rate of women getting raped in college is not 1 in 5, having sex with a woman after she's had a beer is not rape, and every woman who does not identify as a feminist does not have "internalized misogyny". I'm all for women's rights, just as I'm for men's rights. I have an immense respect for people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who fights violations of human rights. The modern (which wave are we up to now?) version of feministm seems to consist of a disturbingly large number of well-off (you'll notice how rarely they bring up class as a category of oppression) women looking very hard for things to be outraged about (see: manspreading).

the views about pay equality and their associated biases, obviously. as for the paygap comment(before you started rambling about rape and genital mutilation), it's 78c on the dollar as of 2013(source). admittedly that's only for the US, and the figure varies by state(DC being the highest at 91%, LA the lowest at 66%)

for corporate jobs no?

low middle class and poor women get paid the same as low middle class or poor men.
why do we care so much about rich people? not like any of us are in a position to change the attitude of the rich and upper middle class.

I mentioned rape twice as as a part of two very popular feminist claims. One has been debunked (the actual figure is something like 0.003/5), and the other is a view they would very much like more people to have. I also did not mention genital mutilation once, but since you brought it up, yes I do think that's a issue.

As for the pay gap, your annual report updates itself to now claim a difference of 23 cents. However, being more recent is not a guarantee for increased accuracy, if the bad camparisons and political agenda remain.

Consad said something on the matter in 2009:


Source

I agree, people who disagree with me should be banned from the Internet for life!

That PDF should be called "The Reductive Lie".

The key word in the paygap discussion is EARN. Companies do not discriminate based on gender, they discriminate based on merit, and they do so within the law. Anyone who thinks their company is in breach of discrimination law should seek redress through proper channels.

Remember:

Men and women EARN what they're deemed to be worth. This valuation is the sum of a number of factors which are unrelated to the genitalia of each individual. If you wish to demonstrate otherwise, please point out which companies are operating illegally.

if you'd read either of the PDFs linked, you'd know that the paygap(while not as bad as the aauw link purports) is still there. also, the comment that gender discrimination doesn't happen any more is pure just-world crap.

Part of the issue is that it's not easy to tell when you are the victim of wage discrimination and so bring a lawsuit. For a Westernised country, America has terrible standards of worker's rights, and until recently you could be fired for discussing wages with another employee. There are similar issues throughout much of the world however, as it is generally taboo to discuss wages even if it isn't a disciplinary offence, and companies don't publish data showing how much their employees make.

Senator Barbara Mikulski has proposed a Paycheck Fairness Act which would go some way to solving these issues: http://www.civilrights.org/archives/201 ... rness.html

As for whether the wage gap exists, I agree that the 78% figure is not a valid comparison. However, there's little doubt that the gap does exist and cannot be explained by hypotheses such as career choice and working shorter hours. This article has some good citations, although the publisher is explicitly left wing. As well as a break down by occupation, you'll see that two studies found 23% and 40% of the pay variation between sexes was "unexplained".

There is absolutely a raw pay gap, that's the 77-78 cents to the dollar figure that's being trotted around. I just don't know that the pay gap, after other significant factors have been accounted for, is significant enough to warrant radical societal and legislative changes. I can't entirely disprove that there's discrimination going on, I just find it difficult to believe that all of western society is saturated with evil white men doing their utmost to keep women down. That corporations care about money and merit, not genitals, I don't think I really have to justify too hard. So if there is indeed discrimination, is supect it would be because in the case of pregancy, a woman is entitled to a years paid vacation (it is a year in America, right?), while the company gets the hassle of getting her job done in the meantime. I'm not saying discriminating on this basis is okay, but that's a scenario where the company loses money and gains hassle because woman, which if you're a company, you strive to avoid because profit. I also suspect that this is the reason why there is legislation being tossed around over here to earmark a significant portion of the parental leave to the father, so as to negate this kind of reasoning. Also, we have fairly extensive options for those in need of child care, which is something I've seen presented as a problem on the other side of the pond.

Maybe I have invisible Scandinavian Privilege...?



That does sound harsh, but are there no unions? Even if you don't compare your wages directly with other employees, your union would have insight into what you should be paid, and be obligated to take action if the case is otherwhise.




This issue is so charged, it's hard to find any reliable data or opinons on the matter. The article you link cites the usual 78 cents gap ( as well as separate numbers for black women and latinas, which seems like a whole other can of worms), while the fairly extensive study I linked before suggests that after adjusting for other factors, the gap shrunk to 4.8%-7.1%, which may or may not be too small to draw any conclusions from, and here is a woman who suggests that even among full-time workers, men on average working longer hours (and/or overtime) accounts for something like 25% of the pay gap, as well as displaying a greater willingness to sacrifice job desirability for higher pay. Not too many women in coal mines.




Nothing wrong with being left wing. Heck, I'm left wing. In my country, I think even the ones we would call right wing would practically be communists from an American. Though there is such a thing as is such a thing as too left wing.


This looks like cherry picking and/or not comparing like with like to me. On the one side, specific professions where women earn less, and on the other side "industries" where women, presumably on average compared to men, earn less, with no accounting for what their actual job is. In that list, I'd be sorted under finance/economics, but I can promise you that every woman that works in my building (thats something like 16 women to 4 men) earns more than I do for that reason.


EDIT: Saw that you were English, and I had adressed you as American in places.

Not really
The incredible decline of American unions

If you'd bothered to read my post, you would know that I suggested that any gap in earnings between a man and woman doing exactly the same job are most likely due to performance. The figures in the source you provided aren't even remotely related to people in such circumstances. If you'd bothered to further read my post, you would also know that my suggestion to anyone who believes they are a victim of actual discrimination should seek proper redress - which is a de facto acknowledgement that discrimination happens.

Do some fact-checking before leaping in two-footed and accusing others of spouting crap. Median data from the whole population of a country is entirely useless when trying to determine whether actual discrimination is taking place, for a whole host of reasons.



Exactly. Any attempt at redress based on the figures being bandied about would constitute actual discrimination. I've even seen downright bonkers suggestions stating that women should receive tax breaks or a stipend to the amount of 22% of their wages.

Absolutely. The issue is the unexplained variation once you've adjusted for career choice, hours worked, etc.

Now, some of this difference could be due to, for example, women being less keen to ask for raises - but if that's the case, let's encourage policies which make up for the difference rather than continuing to systematically underpay half the population.



I think it's just a result of the author of the article not wanting to repeat themselves. Have a look at the raw .pdf. I didn't look through it in much detail because it looked pretty dull, but I'm fairly sure they separated "toilet cleaner at investment bank" from "investment banker".

Here's an example of how the Block Bot is being abused. A group of trans activists who appear to control the Block Bot want to stop the use of the term female genital mutilation (FGM) and will add anyone to the Block Bot's list who protests:



https://twitter.com/WomenCanSee/status/ ... 88/photo/1

The problem with silencing dissent is no single person is actually smart enough to figure out if their own position is correct and justified. Look at the Founding Fathers. They had some good ideas but they were also very backwards in other ways. No one is perfect.

However, I realize that people can be very abusive on the internet especially. So if people can say whatever the hell they went, then people should be able to block whatever the hell they want. When we see hostile criticism in words it causes an immediate negative reaction within us. For most people this is reflex and I would hate to say that someone can't enjoy an online conversation without feeling the need to have their ego attacked constantly.

On the other hand if you look at hate sites like stormfront the moderators will silence dissent in the guise of "this person is a liar" etc... so it is very tricky. I have no problem with blocking people you don't like though. Everyone needs to realize though that their thoughts are fallible.

^this is the clip Whedon criticized and later apologized for doing so.

I don't know if it's sexist, but it sure is lame.

Their priorities are pretty messed up if they're attacking the term FGM because it has female in it, I don't particularly like the term either since I oppose all genital mutilation done without consent male or female and don't think it is helpful to make the distinction. Third world male circumcisions are more common and often done similarly to FGM under the coercion of a mob of people in a dangerous unsanitary way, there are many deaths and amputations in Africa because of this. In South Africa they just grab young men off the street and do it right there. Female circumcision is not apart of our culture but male circumcision is and thus our bias towards it, there should be no religious exemption only health. Otherwise you should have to be able to consent to it yourself once you reach an appropriate age. I know a lot of intersex people probably agree with this since often times the doctor and their parents make a decision one way or another at birth to make surgical alterations so they can be raised as a girl or as a boy when things might be more complicated than that. Really, the point is that nobody should be making permanent life altering decisions about your body besides yourself.

I guess I get the longing to belong to one specific group especially when that grouping was denied to you your whole life up until that point but I think a lot of trans activists put way too much importance into being recognized as the same as those that were born biologically male or female and then get mad when something says something gender specific. The fact is that you are different but there isn't anything wrong with that. You have to accept who you are whatever that may be, there is no point trying to hide or pretend to be someone else.