Page 2 of 13 [ 208 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 13  Next

auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,586
Location: the island of defective toy santas

24 Jun 2015, 11:23 pm

HighLlama wrote:
If you want to get rid of homelessness, just get rid of homes.

and return to universal hunter/gatherer status. seems to me, that things didn't start going to s**t until eve took a bite of that infernal apple.



OliveOilMom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,447
Location: About 50 miles past the middle of nowhere

24 Jun 2015, 11:49 pm

We have a basic human right to what we earn or are freely given by someone, but we don't have a right to income or any other thing except what we get for ourselves, legally. It would be nice to be given something for nothing so that we could live and do absolutely nothing at all to contribute for our existence but if everyone did that then society would break down. Everything out there is a result of someone working. The food we eat is grown, picked, delivered, prepared and sold by someone who is doing that so they get money so they can live. The houses we live in are built by someone who was paid to do so. Our doctors, cops, firemen, EMT's are there because they are paid to be there. The internet is there because people are paid to keep it going. If people got money to live on without having to work then nobody would work and nobody would have anything because all work would stop.

So, that is the kind of world you want? Count me out of that one.


_________________
I'm giving it another shot. We will see.
My forum is still there and everyone is welcome to come join as well. There is a private women only subforum there if anyone is interested. Also, there is no CAPTCHA. ;-)

The link to the forum is http://www.rightplanet.proboards.com


auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,586
Location: the island of defective toy santas

24 Jun 2015, 11:54 pm

I would not mind so much being an eloi, just as long as 1] everybody else were eloi, and 2] the existence of morlocks was impossible.



sly279
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 16,181
Location: US

25 Jun 2015, 12:16 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
We have a basic human right to what we earn or are freely given by someone, but we don't have a right to income or any other thing except what we get for ourselves, legally. It would be nice to be given something for nothing so that we could live and do absolutely nothing at all to contribute for our existence but if everyone did that then society would break down. Everything out there is a result of someone working. The food we eat is grown, picked, delivered, prepared and sold by someone who is doing that so they get money so they can live. The houses we live in are built by someone who was paid to do so. Our doctors, cops, firemen, EMT's are there because they are paid to be there. The internet is there because people are paid to keep it going. If people got money to live on without having to work then nobody would work and nobody would have anything because all work would stop.

So, that is the kind of world you want? Count me out of that one.


lots of people would work for free, plenty of people have enough money to live their lifes 5 times over and still go volunteer or work. they just like working. its why they go out and work after work: ie making stuff, cutting trees etc.

its the people who hate working and want money that complain about welfare not those who like working for workings sake. those people would quit their job if they could get the same money without working, the later would keep working regardless.



OliveOilMom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,447
Location: About 50 miles past the middle of nowhere

25 Jun 2015, 2:36 am

sly279 wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
We have a basic human right to what we earn or are freely given by someone, but we don't have a right to income or any other thing except what we get for ourselves, legally. It would be nice to be given something for nothing so that we could live and do absolutely nothing at all to contribute for our existence but if everyone did that then society would break down. Everything out there is a result of someone working. The food we eat is grown, picked, delivered, prepared and sold by someone who is doing that so they get money so they can live. The houses we live in are built by someone who was paid to do so. Our doctors, cops, firemen, EMT's are there because they are paid to be there. The internet is there because people are paid to keep it going. If people got money to live on without having to work then nobody would work and nobody would have anything because all work would stop.

So, that is the kind of world you want? Count me out of that one.


lots of people would work for free, plenty of people have enough money to live their lifes 5 times over and still go volunteer or work. they just like working. its why they go out and work after work: ie making stuff, cutting trees etc.

its the people who hate working and want money that complain about welfare not those who like working for workings sake. those people would quit their job if they could get the same money without working, the later would keep working regardless.



Sure, some people would continue working but not everyone we need. You actually think that garbage men would still go out and pick up trash if they didn't have to do it to live? Garbage piling up is a problem. You think the folks who work at the gas station are going to be there in the morning when they can still get cash without doing that? What about the guys who pave the roads? The people who work at the grocery store and restaurants?

People who would continue working would be people like some doctors, maybe some cops and firemen, a few nurses, almost all artist types, people who enjoy helping others and who are in helping professions, those who are in professions where they make a lot more than what the govt gives them as the basic human right so they can earn more money. The people who won't be show up are the ones who earn the lower wages. Those who work hard just to put food on the table. Oddly enough, those are the jobs that we cannot do without. It's the blue collar worker that makes the everyday stuff in this country run. He's the guy who is barely getting by. The guy who fixes your car, your plumber, the girl at Starbucks or at the gas station or everybody at Walmart. Imagine a world where only the altruistic ones or those who make a ton of money go to work. Well, they wouldn't be going for long because there will be nobody to ring up their gas so they can get there.

It won't work. Society is dependent on the blue collar worker and that is the very one who will quit work if he can get the same thing simply for being alive because it's a basic human right. My husband is an electrician. He wouldn't go out there and bust his ass in this heat if he got the same thing from the government just for existing.

Survival requires work, and it requires other people's work too. Imagine what it would be like if there were no blue collar people going to work. Most blue collar people don't love their jobs that much that they would do them for free.


_________________
I'm giving it another shot. We will see.
My forum is still there and everyone is welcome to come join as well. There is a private women only subforum there if anyone is interested. Also, there is no CAPTCHA. ;-)

The link to the forum is http://www.rightplanet.proboards.com


auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,586
Location: the island of defective toy santas

25 Jun 2015, 3:14 am

I'm waiting for all the worker bees to go on strike.



OliveOilMom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,447
Location: About 50 miles past the middle of nowhere

25 Jun 2015, 3:58 am

auntblabby wrote:
I'm waiting for all the worker bees to go on strike.


That will never happen. Not everything is unionized and not every place even has unions. Also, those who run the unions know that if everybody stops at once, everything goes to hell. It's like dominos and we don't want society going to ruin just to prove a point that not everyone supports.

Alabama is a right to work state, and luckily my husband doesn't have to join the IBEW to work, although we do have it here and he could if he wanted to. He checked into it and it's not anything that he would be interested in at all. Unions are fine for people who want them but they shouldn't have a monopoly on things. Some people cannot work where or when the unions tell them to, and trust me, they do put unreasonable restrictions on you at times.

In some states where certain things are controlled by unions, it's also easily corrupted. I seriously doubt any union, anywhere, is without OC influence. Well, maybe the police unions in states that have them, but I kind of doubt that. ;-)


_________________
I'm giving it another shot. We will see.
My forum is still there and everyone is welcome to come join as well. There is a private women only subforum there if anyone is interested. Also, there is no CAPTCHA. ;-)

The link to the forum is http://www.rightplanet.proboards.com


Dillogic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,339

25 Jun 2015, 4:38 am

Only if you work for it (or if unable due to a disability),

One thing I've found is that when you give people the basics too easily, they can actually degenerate into something less than what they normally would be, and it can create problems for them and society. Things are respected less, as they didn't have to earn them.



zer0netgain
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Mar 2009
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,613

25 Jun 2015, 2:38 pm

I see it as a stupid idea for a simple reason...you can't cure lazy and stupid by rewarding it.

Let's say you give $10,000 each year to EVERYONE regardless of merit to help them "support themselves."

Can you imagine the economic backlash on the cost of goods and services? You have to have a centrally-regulated economy, which is socialism, which is an abject failure everywhere it's implemented.

Then, you'd have the morons who'd squander that money and still be out on the streets. The solution? Give them MORE MONEY.

It's the very reason the welfare system (USA) isn't working. For all those it does manage to help, many more exploit the system or squander it, and it's failure to cure social ills results in people saying we just need to throw more money at the problem rather than accept we should not help people who are only going to self-destruct no matter what we do for them.

Hunger is a great motivator to make a person get up and go to work in the morning. When all basic needs are met, you have class of people content to live off of what's provided to them. Sadly, this same group ultimately demands that they be given the same as those who have more because they WORKED for it.



auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,586
Location: the island of defective toy santas

25 Jun 2015, 2:47 pm

I beg to differ- I live on a subsistence income now and I do not begrudge those who are lucky and strong enough to earn far more than I ever will.



AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

25 Jun 2015, 2:49 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
...It's the very reason the welfare system (USA) isn't working. For all those it does manage to help, many more exploit the system or squander it....

Not the least of whom were Republican U.S. President Reagan who added the Social Security fund as a (non-spendable) asset against his Reaganomics budgets, and Democratic U.S. President Clinton who added the Social Security fund as a (lendable) asset against his "balanced" budgets. Presidents have spent from the fund ever since.

Now, there's yer problem!


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


Fugu
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Dec 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,074
Location: Dallas

25 Jun 2015, 2:59 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
It's the very reason the welfare system (USA) isn't working. For all those it does manage to help, many more exploit the system or squander it, and it's failure to cure social ills results in people saying we just need to throw more money at the problem rather than accept we should not help people who are only going to self-destruct no matter what we do for them.
I'm curious, in what way is 2.67% of all welfare recipients considered "many more"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_fraud



Ban-Dodger
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jun 2011
Age: 1027
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,820
Location: Возможно в будущее к Россию идти... можеть быть...

25 Jun 2015, 3:57 pm

The welfare-system only costs a handful few millions of dollars in comparison to the perpetual-WARS that cost MULTIPLE QUADRILLIONS OF DOLLARS !

Fugu wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
It's the very reason the welfare system (USA) isn't working. For all those it does manage to help, many more exploit the system or squander it, and it's failure to cure social ills results in people saying we just need to throw more money at the problem rather than accept we should not help people who are only going to self-destruct no matter what we do for them.
I'm curious, in what way is 2.67% of all welfare recipients considered "many more"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_fraud

Who is being frauded now ? If anybody is « exploiting » anything it's those war-mongering criminal-politicians and agents of Federal-Reserve Banksters.


_________________
Pay me for my signature. 私の署名ですか❓お前の買うなければなりません。Mon autographe nécessite un paiement. Которые хочет мою автографу, у тебя нужно есть деньги сюда. Bezahlst du mich, wenn du meine Unterschrift wollen.


auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,586
Location: the island of defective toy santas

25 Jun 2015, 5:19 pm

some people prefer welfare for the rich to welfare for the poor.



FMX
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,319

25 Jun 2015, 5:34 pm

That guy in the TEDx video is a very poor speaker. I listened to 2 minutes of a 16 minute video and he didn't even say what the hell his big idea was. I'm not about to listen to another 14 minutes just to see if he eventually gets to the point.

Video aside, Universal Basic Income is brought up often, but I've never seen anyone show (with numbers) where the additional wealth required would come from. Note that I didn't say "money" (pieces of paper), I said "wealth" (what those pieces of paper represent). Alternatively, some people claim that Universal Basic Income is just a more efficient way of distributing welfare than the current system, so no additional wealth would be required, but again, I've never seen any numbers to support this.

That kills the idea right from the start, even before we consider the likely long-term effects.


_________________
CloudFlare eating your posts? Try the Lazarus browser extension. See https://wp-fmx.github.io/WP/


auntblabby
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 114,586
Location: the island of defective toy santas

25 Jun 2015, 5:43 pm

when automation kills the lions' share of jobs, then it will either be some form of bread and circuses [universal welfare] or americans en masse will starve. and what the smartypants who think they're so clever in automating every job to save the ultimate buck don't know, is that in the end the joke is on THEM.