Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

What type of gun law would have made this situation not occu

Page 2 of 4 [ 63 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,777
Location: Victoria, Australia

21 Jun 2015, 9:03 pm

sly279 wrote:
most the shootings that happen in the US were legally bought. so how does background checks to prevent criminals from buying guns stop the shootings?


Yes, legally bought, because there are almost no restrictions that would prevent someone who really wanted a gun from actually acquiring one. That's the problem.



xenocity
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Dec 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,282
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

21 Jun 2015, 9:07 pm

Dillogic wrote:
"Gun violence" is a misnomer.

As you're implying that the violence is caused by the firearm.

Japan would have the exact same murder rate whether they had their firearm laws or not. They're a homogenous culture with little in the way of an impoverished underclass.

The same with Switzerland. Their murder rate would be exactly the same if they had Japan's laws.

IIRC, Japan and Switzerland have around the same murder rate, even though their laws couldn't be further apart (less than 1 per 100,000).

Japan has an impoverished lower class and they have a huge struggling middle class that hasn't seen substantial wage increases in years.
They have also been trapped in economic stagnation since the early 1990s.
Japan also has a guest worker class from other SE Asian countries and close to a million foreigners.
literally 1.5%+ of their population is foreign.

South Korea is actually the most homogenous country in the world, followed by North Korea and China.

Switzerland on the other hand has mandatory military training and service for all males 20 - 34.
They require them to keep all their military gear, including military issued guns at home in case of a national emergency.
This is the main cause of gun related violence in Switzerland, regularly being reported on by DW and BBC.

There is a move in Switzerland to remove military issued guns and weapons from the homes of their soldiers, in order to reduce gun violence and gun based suicides.


_________________
Something.... Weird... Something...


AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

21 Jun 2015, 9:13 pm

xenocity wrote:
...these countries also have very little gun violence and very strict gun control:
[...] *Switzerland....

You do understand that Switzerland requires certain of its citizens to possess a "military grade" firearm in their homes at all times?

In fact, military-grade firearms are pretty much the only firearms sold in the United States since its founding. Why? Because the Founders wanted the citizens to have the same firearms that any enemy would have. Wartime is hardly the time to realize that the citizenry is outgunned. But, I believe you are trying to make the distinction between discriminate firearms (which are lawful for most citizens to own and possess because they are used for most traditionally lawful purposes) and indiscriminate firearms (which aren't lawful for most citizens to own and possess because they aren't used for most traditionally lawful purposes) which are described generally online ( http://www.weaponslaw.org/glossary/indi ... ate-weapon ).


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


Dillogic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,339

21 Jun 2015, 9:14 pm

Lintar wrote:
Yes, legally bought, because there are almost no restrictions that would prevent someone who really wanted a gun from actually acquiring one. That's the problem.


Apart from the paperwork differences (and other misc. things), they'll be denied just the same in the US as Oz when wanting to purchase a firearm from a retailer for similar reasons.



Dillogic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,339

21 Jun 2015, 9:16 pm

xenocity wrote:
There is a move in Switzerland to remove military issued guns and weapons from the homes of their soldiers, in order to reduce gun violence and gun based suicides.


What's the point if reducing "gun violence" and "gun suicides" doesn't actually reduce the overall violent crime and suicide rate? What you should be doing is figuring out ways to reduce violent crime (social programs tend to help, for example) and suicides (counseling), not doing something that's purely feelgood and an appeal to emotion.

You can kill people all the same with a blade, and yourself all the same with a piece of rope (plus all the other various tools/weapons you can use for either).



Last edited by Dillogic on 21 Jun 2015, 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,777
Location: Victoria, Australia

21 Jun 2015, 9:17 pm

This is a bit dated - from last year - but I just couldn't resist linking to it. It's about the 'Open Carry' movement in the U.S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTpCUAK4ypA



xenocity
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Dec 2014
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,282
Location: Metro Detroit Michigan

21 Jun 2015, 9:22 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
xenocity wrote:
...these countries also have very little gun violence and very strict gun control:
[...] *Switzerland....

You do understand that Switzerland requires certain of its citizens to possess a "military grade" firearm in their homes at all times?

In fact, military-grade firearms are pretty much the only firearms sold in the United States since its founding. Why? Because the Founders wanted the citizens to have the same firearms that any enemy would have. Wartime is hardly the time to realize that the citizenry is outgunned. But, I believe you are trying to make the distinction between discriminate firearms (which are lawful for most citizens to own and possess because they are used for most traditionally lawful purposes) and indiscriminate firearms (which aren't lawful for most citizens to own and possess because they aren't used for most traditionally lawful purposes) which are described generally online ( http://www.weaponslaw.org/glossary/indi ... ate-weapon ).

As posted above, yes!
You cannot legal obtain most firearms in Switzerland outside of hunting rifles and your military issue currently.
If they successfully change the law preventing soldiers from taking their military issues home in order to reduce the gun related violence.

Every watch BBC World or DW International news (German state broadcaster)? They constantly report on how Switzerland is facing a rising rate of gun related violence due to soldiers being forced to take their guns home and how Switzerland is rapidly catching up the U.S. in gun related violence.


_________________
Something.... Weird... Something...


Dillogic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,339

21 Jun 2015, 9:23 pm

Lintar wrote:
This is a bit dated - from last year - but I just couldn't resist linking to it. It's about the 'Open Carry' movement in the U.S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTpCUAK4ypA


This is mainly just what people are used to.

Most people are used to driving/walking down a two way street, even though the car coming the other way will kill you if you so happen to move in front of it or it you.

I'm more nervous on a highway than a shooting range, as the former is something I don't do as often. Except archery ranges. They scare me the most.



AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

21 Jun 2015, 9:27 pm

Lintar wrote:
This is a bit dated - from last year - but I just couldn't resist linking to it. It's about the 'Open Carry' movement in the U.S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTpCUAK4ypA

Most of the open-carry movement started in Texas where, while concealed carry was allowed for handguns, unconcealed carry was prohibited except for rifles and other long guns). The movement succeeded recently in convincing Texas Gov. Greg Abbott to sign a bill allowing for unconcealed possession of all firearms.

In most states, the same commonsense reasons that law-enforcement officers posses unconcealed firearms (visual deterrent, easier access, faster access, safer access) apply to citizens who posses unconcealed firearms. These are my reasons, too. I like having the choice of concealed or unconcealed possession.


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


AspieUtah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2014
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Brigham City, Utah

21 Jun 2015, 9:34 pm

xenocity wrote:
...They constantly report on how Switzerland is facing a rising rate of gun related violence due to soldiers being forced to take their guns home and how Switzerland is rapidly catching up the U.S. in gun related violence.

The home invading criminals have got to be the dumbest creatures to ever crawl Earth! Let's see: "Hey, Bubba (or whatever the Swiss word for "Bubba" is), let's go rob that chalet over there. I have a feeling the guy in the lederhosen who lives there is a reservist in our military, so he's gotta have a couple of them sweet rifles issued by the government just a-laying around. What do you say, Bubba? Let's go for it!" [knock-knock] "We want yer guns!"

Oh, you'll get the guns; one bullet at a time.


_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)


Dillogic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,339

21 Jun 2015, 9:37 pm

xenocity wrote:
gun related violence. You cannot legal obtain most firearms in Switzerland outside of hunting rifles and your military issue currently.


This is just a "talking point", an appeal to emotion, and a false cause fallacy.

It has nothing to do with logic, and the real reason/cause for violence.

Note how it'll change to "knife violence" when people feel firearms have been adequately legislated (though, if there's a massive amount of restricted firearms in a country, they're still going to be around for decades to centuries on the illegal market). You have an ending spiral of buzzwords and addressing the weapon/tool used, all without actually helping reduce the overall crime rate.

Second point, that's wrong. You can buy pistols and military pattern semi-automatic rifles in Switzerland, not just "hunting" rifles. And yet, they still have less than 1 murder per 100,000 people. Which is less than here in Oz, even though we can't buy military pattern rifles.



Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

21 Jun 2015, 9:42 pm

I'm curios to know why if murders can be attributed to the lack of gun control why did the sharp increase in firearm sales in the past 6 years not give us a proportionate rise in the numbers of gun related murders? And, yes, the surge in gun buying in 2009 (Obama inauguration) and 2012-13 (Sandy Hook) pretty much made gun shop shelves and racks bare of the more popular firearms and common caliber ammo.
The streets should be running red with blood.


_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson


ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

21 Jun 2015, 9:43 pm

Dillogic wrote:
xenocity wrote:
gun related violence. You cannot legal obtain most firearms in Switzerland outside of hunting rifles and your military issue currently.


This is just a "talking point", an appeal to emotion, and a false cause fallacy.

It has nothing to do with logic, and the real reason/cause for violence.

Note how it'll change to "knife violence" when people feel firearms have been adequately legislated (though, if there's a massive amount of restricted firearms in a country, they're still going to be around for decades to centuries on the illegal market). You have an ending spiral of buzzwords and addressing the weapon/tool used, all without actually helping reduce the overall crime rate.

Second point, that's wrong. You can buy pistols and military pattern semi-automatic rifles in Switzerland, not just "hunting" rifles. And yet, they still have less than 1 murder per 100,000 people. Which is less than here in Oz, even though we can't buy military pattern rifles.


That knife violence argument is laughable at best. Bomb violence would be a better analogy.



Dillogic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,339

21 Jun 2015, 9:53 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
That knife violence argument is laughable at best.


It sounds silly, doesn't it?

But nope, "knife violence/crime" is a thing in the UK and Australia. It's a real term.

But again, it's not silly, as it's the same thing as "gun violence/crime".



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

21 Jun 2015, 10:26 pm

Dillogic wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
That knife violence argument is laughable at best.


It sounds silly, doesn't it?

But nope, "knife violence/crime" is a thing in the UK and Australia. It's a real term.

But again, it's not silly, as it's the same thing as "gun violence/crime".



If Dylann Roof would have been armed with just a knife there would be 8 grateful people alive today, maybe 9.



Dillogic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,339

21 Jun 2015, 10:35 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
If Dylann Roof would have been armed with just a knife there would be 8 grateful people alive today, maybe 9.


And you base that on?

There's been massacres involving knives that have killed 8 or more people. The last massacre here in Oz had 8 fatalities, and a knife was used; sure, they were kids, but an unarmed man can't defend against someone with a knife that wishes to kill him (if you're in a church, you aren't running away). The only way you can defend against someone with a knife is a number advantage (numbers don't matter if none of them resist, though), or a firearm.

A stab to the neck with a hunting knife is just as fatal as a gunshot to the neck.