Do we have free will?

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I think the most fascinating and perhaps telling thing about it is that if we take it too seriously our need for meaning and gainful activity seems to lose its basis. I don't think that being compelled to live the illusion to live well is a sign that nature pulled a trick on us however; my hunch is something more to the effect that when we're here we're doing what we're supposed to be doing to actively engage it.

If we exist inside if an Echoing copy of a Repeating past existence, No, We do not now have free will, We HAD freewill, but we will do Exactly the same thing we Did the Previous trip through.

I think so, yes. As I see it.

Either I don't have free will, but am pre-determined to think I do, to experience that I do (until such a time as I'm pre-determined to no longer think so). Or, I actually do.

So either I have no say in the matter, or I'm right in thinking I do.

I can't see how it would be psychologically possible to believe one had no free will. I've always found that a bit of a headache inducer.

If what you believe to be "I" (in terms of your "mind") consists of: buried "ID" and "sub-conscious" mind and "conscious" mind....standard Freudian thinking I believe....then I submit the following:

The "free will" question depends on whether or not you have control over your own decisions and actions vs. your sub-conscious making decisions for you without your knowledge, because of information lodged in your sub-conscious at some time (without your express consent). Recent studies show this happening in decision making when a subject's subconscious makes a choice, and then the conscious mind copies it and calls it "it's" choice.

If you believe, once a thought or idea enters your mind, your reaction to it can never change you would be wrong since people and their attitudes can and do change all the time (after all we're analog, not digital). If we believe our sub-conscious does the "lion's share" of heavy mental lifting then we must conclude a change in a person's beliefs is indicative of a change in their sub-conscious mind (which, after all, is just another part of "us").

How and WHY to consciously change your subconscious? Feed it the food of YOUR choosing. Is this possible? To make a choice to believe something not already ingrained in your mental system by previous learning and habit? By learning enough we can sway our brains toward any goal, it's easy. Did you know the average person can be "brain washed" into believing almost anything in 72 hours or less?

It's your brain, your ID, your subconscious and your conscious all together, to do with as you please. Be as "free" as you wish.

Well.... apparently, according to some research I came across in New Scientist, the neurophysiological signs of a decision are shown to exist before that decision could logically have been made, or consciously made.

Hi, Ardentmisanthrope23.

What you describe is what I tried to clumsily say when I said:

"Recent studies show this happening in decision making when a subject's subconscious makes a choice, and then the conscious mind copies it and calls it "it's" choice."

When you're born your brain and attached parts holds the basic information to keep your heart beating, lungs pumping air, etc. You also have automatic responses to pain, cold, etc. And you will also have impressions of life around you while you were in gestation.

As you age, after birth, your mind is an open gate for incoming information and this information is stored, in what we like to call our memory. But what is our "memory" and how do we access stored information? How do we observe a baseball flying toward us and how do we retrieve the information necessary to calculate whether the ball will strike us...or not??? You can imagine how fast we expect our subconscious to operate to do these tasks.

Well, fortunately for us, our subconscious is in contact with our memories of similar events and makes the calculation/ estimate, for us. This is the part of the brain that remembers an unhappy tasting of chocolate/kale ice cream and remembers this for the future. Our subconscious will keep track of both good and bad experiences.

But here's the question: When we have our subconscious mind making rapid decisions for us...do we ever find our subconscious has made a decision our conscious mind "does not agree with?" I hope this is never the case but realize, that upon retrospection, sometimes we DO change our minds about certain subjects because of new information, etc. I find, when I do change long held beliefs, I may temporarily continue to ponder the question for validity in my decision (i.e. "internal conflict") but I find, once I've "made my mind up", I no longer experience any "internal conflict" and realize I have changed my memory (my mind if you will) through deliberate action.

Your subconscious operates on information it's received. Feeding your mind with the information you wish it to use for it's operation and decision making is the key.

I think both predestination and free will are true. They only superficially contradict, but if God is omniscient then both the actual and all possible futures are known to Him. With free will, we select what we want in our present and try to do and narrow own a decision tree of possible timelines into an actual set of previous decisions.

Ok, I tend to answer the banner with my opinion more than pay attention properly, but point taken....

It sometimes seems our subconscious is smarter than we are, don't you think?

After all, there is a school of thought that suggests the less you interpret and the more you perceive without judgement the more accurate your view actually is.

And I certainly seem to do better the less I think and the more I just do things. Pretty hard for me as an Asperger and as the person I am...

Buddhists describe this as this living in the present without attachment, I think.

Stop me if you think I'm talking b*****ks

"It sometimes seems our subconscious is smarter than we are, don't you think?"

Well, not exactly. I mean...I DO think, but since I think of myself as ID, plus subconscious, plus conscious then I can't be smarter than myself, can I?

As pointed out, there are at least two ways of thinking: Apparently the most common is using our conscious minds to work out problems step-by-step and consciously dragging things up from memory to assist us, a slow and tedious process. The other way is to let your subconscious do this; the reason why the idea of studying just before sleep can sometimes be valuable as it allows your subconscious to sort things out while your weary conscious mind recharges.

I guess I just say: Your ID and subconscious are also part of you, just like your fingers, not some mysterious"other" that controls your destiny....and you should become more aware of your different "parts."

Feed your head.

I guess it was a clumsy analogy.

I don't really see my subconscious as an integrated part of my personality but an analytical and somewhat instinctive background process. One that communicates imperfectly with my conscious actively thinking self.

Not necessarily how it actually works, just how it feels to me.

Well I don't think you're supposed to consider it in that manner, otherwise everyone would do it, but this part of your mind is your "hidden computer" that does all the heavy lifting and we've become so used to it, we let it go along and pay it no mind. The communication between yourself happens all the time....you just don't notice. Any direct communication might just slow things down anyway.

And so when a scientist does some tests and proves it out (as you've shown above), it's just another fact stored away and subject to "coloring" by previous thoughts and experiences.

A book I found that points this out in detail: Conscious and Unconscious Programs in the Brain by Benjamin Kissin,M.D. and published by Plenum Medical Book Company, New York and London, ISBN 0-306-42243-3

From the flyleaf: Conscious and Unconscious Programs in the Brain details new links between the conscious mind and all activities of the brain that at any moment are not in awareness. This model of a psychobiological unconscious shares similarities with the data abstraction functions used in the artificial intelligence of computers and also with the Freudian dynamic unconscious.

Something I just picked up: "Blink" The Power of Thinking Without Thinking, by Malcolm Gladwell, Little, Brown and Company, ISBN 0-316-17232-4 that talks about the practical use of your subconscious. Just getting into this.

Not for much longer if liberals have their way.

if there is such a thing as free will, I don't believe I've met its acquaintance.

Do you not feel you are unique (?) that your life contains an infinitude of differences..... chosen by you through the process we call "growing up" which is created by "your" unique path through life?

Do you think then we're born with our (what you might call) "adult" subconscious persona rather than have it develop it's own uniqueness as you pass through this 4 dimensional space?

Or perhaps your approach is based on religious training and belief in the human "soul?" What do you think?

all my life I have felt as though I had to hang on for dear life, not really in direct control of too much. some folks are captains of their destinies, others are the flunkies cleaning up after.

That was beautiful, ZenDen...