Are these things illusions?

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Is illusion an illusion? And is the illusion of illusion an illusion? And is the illusion of the illusion of illusion an illusion? etc.

Matter, space, time, etc. could be parameters of data on something like a giant computer and it wouldn't make it an illusion. You'd have a description of the delivery method of what we call reality but the delivery method itself doesn't make our reality unreal, just like all of this being a 2-D layer stretched spherically across the surface of a black hole wouldn't make this an illusion nor would 11-dimensional strings mean much in that regard. We might come to consider that what we've seen as good Newtonian common-sense has been profoundly narrow and even faisifiable in certain instances even within it's current relevant range but that's an extrapolation process of the real rather than taking a 'real' frozen in time and disproving it as illusory.

We think we have it but we actually don't. Our actions are determined by physical laws, and what we do is inevitable. If time reversed and everyone forgot, everything would turn out exactly the same each time.

Humans are creative. That means we have been able to make so much of our reality. Our creating new things confirrms reality for us.

Thinking is not free will..so perhaps for you..you may be correct..but for me NO.. i for one express relative free will in irrefutable fact of ART.

And here's the thing..medical science says it is impossible for a person with the disorders I am diagnosed with.. to physically do what I do including structural issues like Spinal Stenosis and Severe Degenerative Spinal Arthritis precipitated early by a congenitally fused vertebra with all my other problems that I am sure you are well versed enough in now.. if you've been listening to me at all..

Sure you may think YOU do NOT have relative free will; but one day when you feel it you may change your feelings about this in mind and body balance; as that is where the real life is; and then perhaps your thinking may finAlly change my friend; with all due respect; life is too short not to live it without some kind of free will; but yes, sadly enough; some folks apparently live their entire life without any semblance of free will; takes me until age 53 to get tHere; but once one arrives every now is an infinite now of the real kingdom of heaven

It's awakening and or enlightenment my friend; same Truth and Light; different metaphors throughout all human history in different languages and tongues and well before that as well; as it is Universal Truth and Light, my friend always now for human being as is for thousands of years..

You may live an illusion; but my life is REAL and totAlly orchestrated by ART of WILL; and trust me it's impossible not to realize it for most folks who meet me in real life; and most folks in real life; have never come close to meeting someone like me; by their words and not mine; my friend..

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That's one way to state it. Here's another.

When you make a decision to do something, "who" or "what" is doing the deciding? I say the "you" is the total "YOU" that includes all of the events of your life (even the ones you might not like to remember) and this "choice" is facilitated by all the information your unconscious (which is part of you) has accumulated across your lifetime aided by the instinctive part of you (sometimes called your ID, which is also part of you). Your conscious mind can't hold all of this information at one time so certain "sub-programs" developed by your mind fill in the gaps with "experience created instinctive reactions" (as opposed to merely ID created instinctual reactions) to facilitate your making decisions.

In other words it's always the total YOU that makes such decisions. But if we imagine a "different" past and if this past were viewed and evaluated by your earlier subconscious, then in this "different" future you might not make the same decisions. We're all quite malleable and experience, and experiences, either accidental or chosen (and how we interpret them) can and will make a difference in how we "choose" our way through life.

Oh come on Walrus, I was expecting better than this! Our actions are only determined to the extent that we cannot violate physical law (ex. defy gravity and fly away like a bird), but just because absolute free will is nonexistent, it does not therefore follow that our actions are determined to the extent that we cannot even make simple choices (ex. to turn left instead of right when one has approached a T-intersection, or even go back the way one came).

I chose to respond to your, in my view completely inadequate, response to my question. I could just as easily have decided to ignore it. I could also have made the decision to actually agree with you, although I have to admit that would have been the most difficult of the three obvious options available to me.

Give it another shot.

How do you know this? Why should I believe you?

ZenDen, all of this is purely speculative. It certainly sounds more convincing than what Walrus provided here, but only because you make more of an effort than he did to justify your stance. It certainly is the case that I will be affected by my past, by certain events that occurred within it, but it cannot be said that those events will override all else and make me do anything at all. I may have a craving for chocolate, or a desire to visit a restaurant when lunchtime comes along because I am hungry, but it is ridiculously easy to override those urges. I am not determined by my physical form, by biology, because I am not just my body. I am so much more than this.

You seem to have completely misunderstood my point - you have certainly misrepresented it in your post, even if you didn't choose to do so.

Our decision making is determined by events in our brains. Our brains follow physical laws, a string of cause-and-effect events. We sense something, it is relayed to the brain, some ions and neurotransmitters move around, and a response signal is sent out. We are complex games of Mousetrap. Do cliffs have a choice about whether they erode and fall into the sea? Of course not. Our brains are simply more complex versions of that cliff.

You thought you chose to engage with my argument. In reality, you had no choice. Responding to intelligent discussion, whether to engage or to show off or to inform, is part of who you are. You were always going to engage.

Now, you might not engage with this post - but that's because getting frustrated with stupid lines of thinking is part of who you are, or because you're a contrary person. That's just how your neurons are arranged.


Why would anyone make any different decisions? If ions diffused in such a way last time, there's no reason to assume they'll diffuse differently if the starting conditions are the same.


If this were true, it would make free will a real possibility. To my knowledge, there is absolutely no evidence that it is. Please provide some evidence that there is more to you (or living things generally) than your physical form. I would also be interested in knowing exactly when this extra thing evolved. Are other primates much more than their bodies? Other amniotes? Vertebrates? Chordates? Animals? Eukaryotes? Cellular life forms? Do viruses have something extra to them? What about abiotic organic chemistry?

Because Walruses always have truly reversible logic.

^^^

"getting frustrated with stupid lines of thinking is part of who you are, or because you're a contrary person. That's just how your neurons are arranged."

IRONY; SAD IRONY.

AND no
illusion.

Dude, I suggest you do a little MORE research into epigenetics, neuroplasticity, cognitive behavioral therapy, and biofeedback, in general; and MANY other areas of human pursuit.

Zoology 101 does not cover this or Biology 101. Humans are more than robots or parasites, my friend.

Experience is the WELL spring of wisdom and freedom; you are still relatively green my friend; and that's just how reality goes with human nature. Just means you are young baby and and have a long way to go STILL to understand more of what life can bring.
I hope that helps, eventually; but for now it seems to me that you are still locked in Plato's first cave, with all due respect.

And if this distorts your picture of reality;
please feel free to moderate it out;
sincerely, with all due respect.

FRED

The ONLY WAY to develop human relative free will is TO DEVELOP IT; IT AIN'T COST FREE; Years of real life practice baby; flesh and blood practice.

Well said Fred. Ther's nothing I can add.

Smiles, and thank you, friend..

What about illusion of self? Everything that is mind seems to be some THING around your body or inside of it.
A product of your senses, with one core sense, to know or not know, which is to be connected, or not connected.
Five primary senses with many sub category senses inside of them.
Where is your true self?

Where do you find your emotions? And, when I say emotions, I mean the very core of emotions, not the result of it. With anger, you feel your muscles harden, your pupils enlarge, your face distorts, you want to scream and growl, and it's all just so you can get a threat away from you, and it's a painful unwanted feeling.

With fear, you want to run and hide from the threat, your stomach hurts, you sweat, your face distorts, and it's a painful unwanted feeling. With sadness, you become... well, I don't really understand sadness, crying always felt soothing to me. The feeling of no motivation other than to escape somehow due to almost complete despair, however... but, that sounds more like fear to me, or anger, or even both.

Fear and anger seem like almost the same thing. Sadness almost seems like happiness to me. To me, crying is a good feeling. I don't know. I've lost before, and I believe it was fear that was painful, and anger, but not sadness. I realized this when two of my pets were killed by wild animals. I cried a lot, and I saw that there was absolutely no hope for them to exist as they once did. I'm almost crying right now just thinking of it as I type this, but it's not painful, it's paradoxically the opposite for some reason.

Thoughts all seem to be the sound of words, an endless stream of words that are very difficult to remember, and music that ceaselessly repeats itself forever. Thoughts in the form of pictures exist as well, but in flashes, like a video game with modern graphics and a computer that runs it at a terribly low frame rate. I see entire maps of video game areas in my mind very easily, but at a very low frame rate. I can also see maps of paths that I have taken in real life. They are quite detailed, but only for an instant.

Time. They say that time is an illusion, and that time is space. This is a core function of determinism and free will.
Is time linear, circular, both, neither? Maybe it's a static object that never moves? If time is space, then what about the unified field of space? The largest object in the universe, an empty space with moving objects flowing through it. If time is the unified field of space, then that would mean that time never moves, only the objects around it, but... that is what defines time, objects in relation to one another, the sense that things are changing their distance from each other.

Synchronicity. Sometimes I think something, and it happens to someone else that is unaware of my thoughts. You would never believe me if I told you, unless you've also experienced it. For example, I was sitting at a table, and I picked up a box of my mother's e-cigarette's at random (I do not smoke, and this is the only time I ever lifted them), and then, right at that moment, the TV had some report about e-cigarettes on the news. This kind of thing is very common for me, to varying degrees.

Synchronicity. Free will or determinism? Unified unconsciousness. We can only do the best we can to the best of our knowledge. What makes you choose to go one direction or the other? For what reason would you choose to pick one path over another? Good, evil? Some say that is an illusion also. Just words. Fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Good and evil, much like a trampoline with poisoned spikes on it, but still fun to fly, still have to fly to get away from the poisoned spikes. But, moderation is needed, going higher means going lower. Focusing on hedonism will only get you more agony.

Helping others to help yourself, destroying others to help yourself, or helping yourself without others involved.
What is more efficient for you? We all have to destroy to survive. Eating living plants and animals. You help others by giving them what you've destroyed to help yourself, and it helps yourself. If it did not help yourself, you would not do it.

What exactly is pain and pleasure other than losing and winning in some way? Pain and pleasure work together to form a balance. Some say pain creates pleasure in the long run as you suffer in the short term. So the end result is always pleasure. Pay to play.

Do you ever think of why you like to do the things that you like to do? Doesn't really make sense at first glance.
In my case, I've enjoyed video games, most likely as a hunter gatherer instinct. Approval from others, which is really just an instinct to improve your odds in the game of life. Why do any of it? If you don't do it, suffering awaits you. You will die if you do not hunt and gather. And, then what? No one knows, because our senses do not reach that point. Our bodies stop moving, and then disintegrate. Could our true selves be migrating from there in some way? Do you believe that we cease to exist? It's impossible to be conscious of being unconscious.

But why? Why experience these things? Some some there is no why, there just is. It is what it is.
How could I ever prove to myself that any of you are nothing more than figures in a dream I might be having as I sleep?

How could we prove to you the same? Without your senses, you could never prove to yourself that anything is around you. There would be no sense of time until you sense something changing.

How is it that something that only you can experience is not real? Just because only you experience it, and no one else. Like dreams, for example, or hallucinations. Delusions, however, are merely ideas of something that does not exist that you think may exist, or maybe you are certain they exist, and they do not. They don't exist, because they do not apply to anything other than an idea in your mind, they do not form outside of that, unless they are paired with dreams or hallucinations, in which you are the only one to find them real, and no one else. Reality is a connection of all consciousness, an objective reality. And yet, some say there is nothing more than subjective reality, because you could only know that which you sense for yourself.

It's hard to grasp all of it. It's like trying to keep water in your hands as it all seeps out through your fingers as you continue to do what you feel you should do with your life.