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US State of Georgia renames confederate holidays

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Raptor
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13 Aug 2015, 10:58 am

glebel wrote:
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How the hell did we ever tolerate that sort of nonsense? Didn't anyone tell these bastards they lost the war?

Being the descendant of Union soldiers ( three who died in the war ), I have always been offended by the " Lost Cause" mythology. I vote we pull a General Sherman on them. You know, kick their butts and burn down their houses. :x


Nothing like acts of terrorism to get them to see the light, eh?


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13 Aug 2015, 11:27 am

I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.

Does Erwin Rommel belong in the ash bin of history too? Doomed to be forever associated with the regime and dogma of the regime that he sacrificed his life to try to end?

War is NEVER black and white.



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13 Aug 2015, 11:44 am

Support of an evil cause could ne argued to be evil in itself.



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13 Aug 2015, 12:40 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
Support of an evil cause could ne argued to be evil in itself.


Soldiers don't cause wars, they just fight the wars while an elite aristocracy stays home and benefits and it has always been this way. Does a soldier in Iraq bore the responsibility for being there? What about those drafted into Vietnam? War is bigger than any one person but you can be responsible for what YOU do. It's easy to look at stuff in retrospect and cast judgement without realizing these were real people who are victims of circumstance just as we all are today, we are all imperfect people who don't do as much as we could but those who can keep some semblance of moral fiber in dark times should be commended. Nothing is black and white, you can admire certain qualities, accomplishments, sacrifices of people but that doesn't mean you admire them totally because the only person that ever lived up to that standard was Jesus Christ and I'm not religious.

Is it better to celebrate the cruelty and wickedness done for good over those who showed restraint and empathy when evil was all around them?



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13 Aug 2015, 12:58 pm

Raptor wrote:
:roll:
You liberals know you're protesting freedom of expression, dont you?
Wait, wait, wait; I forgot it's a selective right decided by enlightened liberal intellectuals.
My bad.

Bull. We're talking an entire region of the country that continues to memorialize and deify traitors who caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans in defense of their "right" to brutally enslave and exploit an enormous number of human beings. This is black and white: the Confederacy was evil, and those who fought for it were traitors. Show me Germany's shrines to their WWII dead, or Hermann Goering Day celebrated as a national holiday.


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13 Aug 2015, 1:04 pm

Jacoby wrote:
I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.

Rather, let's honor West Virginia's leaders, who remained loyal to America even when the rest of their state turned traitor.


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13 Aug 2015, 1:16 pm

Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.

Rather, let's honor West Virginia's leaders, who remained loyal to America even when the rest of their state turned traitor.


The separation of Virginia probably should have more scrutiny from a legal and historical perspective yes, I'm not sure you'd want to celebrate it.



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13 Aug 2015, 1:41 pm

Jacoby wrote:
I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.

Does Erwin Rommel belong in the ash bin of history too? Doomed to be forever associated with the regime and dogma of the regime that he sacrificed his life to try to end?

War is NEVER black and white.


As far as Rommel is concerned - not only did he personally despise the Nazis, he ended up supporting the failed Stauffenberg bomb plot, which ultimately cost Rommel his life, with thousands of others directly or indirectly associated with the plotters. Rommel had redeemed himself, as had Stauffenberg, Cannaris, Beck, and all the other German military and intelligence men involved.


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13 Aug 2015, 1:57 pm

Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.

Rather, let's honor West Virginia's leaders, who remained loyal to America even when the rest of their state turned traitor.


One man who is beginning to be rediscovered by history is Newton Knight, a Confederate army deserter turned Anti-Confederate guerrilla, as he saw slavery as a moral wrong, and knew the war was the making of the rich plantation owners, but those who fought and died in their conflict were poor men like himself. He had led a band of fellow Confederate deserters and escaped slaves, and had successfully waged non-stop guerrilla warfare against the Confederate military and civil authorities in the heart of Mississippi. Sherman had made mention of them, calling them "southern Yankees." After the war, Knight had done his part for Reconstruction, had married a black lady when it was illegal in Mississippi, and is buried in a black cemetery, again, an act that was back then illegal, and still has mixed race descendants in the area. The state of Mississippi, upon Knight's death, had damned him as a traitor to his country, and a traitor to his race. In an upcoming movie, Mathew McConaughey is playing Knight - Newton got the last laugh after all.


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13 Aug 2015, 2:19 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.

Rather, let's honor West Virginia's leaders, who remained loyal to America even when the rest of their state turned traitor.


One man who is beginning to be rediscovered by history is Newton Knight, a Confederate army deserter turned Anti-Confederate guerrilla, as he saw slavery as a moral wrong, and knew the war was the making of the rich plantation owners, but those who fought and died in their conflict were poor men like himself. He had led a band of fellow Confederate deserters and escaped slaves, and had successfully waged non-stop guerrilla warfare against the Confederate military and civil authorities in the heart of Mississippi. Sherman had made mention of them, calling them "southern Yankees." After the war, Knight had done his part for Reconstruction, had married a black lady when it was illegal in Mississippi, and is buried in a black cemetery, again, an act that was back then illegal, and still has mixed race descendants in the area. The state of Mississippi, upon Knight's death, had damned him as a traitor to his country, and a traitor to his race. In an upcoming movie, Mathew McConaughey is playing Knight - Newton got the last laugh after all.


That's fascinating. Never heard of this before.



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13 Aug 2015, 2:36 pm

Jacoby wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Support of an evil cause could ne argued to be evil in itself.


Soldiers don't cause wars, they just fight the wars while an elite aristocracy stays home and benefits and it has always been this way. Does a soldier in Iraq bore the responsibility for being there? What about those drafted into Vietnam? War is bigger than any one person but you can be responsible for what YOU do. It's easy to look at stuff in retrospect and cast judgement without realizing these were real people who are victims of circumstance just as we all are today, we are all imperfect people who don't do as much as we could but those who can keep some semblance of moral fiber in dark times should be commended. Nothing is black and white, you can admire certain qualities, accomplishments, sacrifices of people but that doesn't mean you admire them totally because the only person that ever lived up to that standard was Jesus Christ and I'm not religious.

Is it better to celebrate the cruelty and wickedness done for good over those who showed restraint and empathy when evil was all around them?



But in this country, soldiers are required to obey lawful orders. And can be criminally prosecuted and punished for obeying unlawful orders.

Good soldier or not, Robert E. Lee was a traitor and a criminal.



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13 Aug 2015, 2:38 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.

Rather, let's honor West Virginia's leaders, who remained loyal to America even when the rest of their state turned traitor.


One man who is beginning to be rediscovered by history is Newton Knight, a Confederate army deserter turned Anti-Confederate guerrilla, as he saw slavery as a moral wrong, and knew the war was the making of the rich plantation owners, but those who fought and died in their conflict were poor men like himself. He had led a band of fellow Confederate deserters and escaped slaves, and had successfully waged non-stop guerrilla warfare against the Confederate military and civil authorities in the heart of Mississippi. Sherman had made mention of them, calling them "southern Yankees." After the war, Knight had done his part for Reconstruction, had married a black lady when it was illegal in Mississippi, and is buried in a black cemetery, again, an act that was back then illegal, and still has mixed race descendants in the area. The state of Mississippi, upon Knight's death, had damned him as a traitor to his country, and a traitor to his race. In an upcoming movie, Mathew McConaughey is playing Knight - Newton got the last laugh after all.


That's fascinating. Never heard of this before.


Well, the movie's coming out - I believe - next year. Hopefully, Knight's name will become a household word.


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13 Aug 2015, 4:53 pm

Raptor wrote:
glebel wrote:
Orwell wrote:
How the hell did we ever tolerate that sort of nonsense? Didn't anyone tell these bastards they lost the war?

Being the descendant of Union soldiers ( three who died in the war ), I have always been offended by the " Lost Cause" mythology. I vote we pull a General Sherman on them. You know, kick their butts and burn down their houses. :x


Nothing like acts of terrorism to get them to see the light, eh?
says the guy defending a traitor flag. there's no :roll: big enough.



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13 Aug 2015, 6:54 pm

Raptor wrote:
:roll:
You liberals know you're protesting freedom of expression, dont you?
Wait, wait, wait; I forgot it's a selective right decided by enlightened liberal intellectuals.
My bad.

What "freedom of expression" is being protested here?

The larger nation tolerated one region flying the flag of sedition for decades after the war was over, and tolerating that region honoring the local traitors. And now that same one region changes its mind and "expresses itself" by disowning the sedition of the past. And the only one who has a problem with this new "self expression" is you. you're the one advocating censorship.



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13 Aug 2015, 7:01 pm

There's enough holidays already! Why on earth does a state need extra ones? Don't tell me these people get paid to take the day off for this. We have none of these in the state I live. It's federal or nothing.



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13 Aug 2015, 10:44 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I find it disheartening that so many people are so historically illiterate that they lash out and want to burn everything that doesn't fit their current narrative. Robert E. Lee was one of the finest generals in American history, he wasn't even for succession and personally opposed slavery but remained loyal to his people and his home of Virginia even against overwhelming odds. If there is a Confederate hero that should be honored, it should be Robert E. Lee.

Rather, let's honor West Virginia's leaders, who remained loyal to America even when the rest of their state turned traitor.


The separation of Virginia probably should have more scrutiny from a legal and historical perspective yes, I'm not sure you'd want to celebrate it.

By the standards laid forth in the Constitution, a new state can not be created from the territory of an existing state without the agreement of the first state. This presumably is your gripe? But as soon as Virginia seceded it claimed to no longer be a state within the Union. There was no constitutional precedent for this situation, though we established in the war that states do not have the right to secede.

And yes, I do celebrate West Virginia's loyalty. They were true patriots, unlike the filth Lee who chose to go along with (and even assist) the treason around him.


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