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Jacoby
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04 Sep 2015, 12:43 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Europe reaping what they sowed in Libya and Turkey has proven what type of ally they really are. How can Europe add more people to its welfare roles when it can't support the people actually from there? I don't really believe that all the refugees are escaping death but rather more just economic immigrants who see a better easier life. It's impossible, if everybody who wanted to live in Europe or America could then there would 4-5 billion people on those continents. People need to fix their own countries, we need to stop blowing them up. If you take them, more will come. It is inevitable and European countries aren't that big, adding 800k foreigners is going to fundementally change the fabric of your society. Sweden 50 years from now is not going to look like a European country.



Does it matter if Sweden looks like a European country? What does that mean, exactly, anyway?


Sweden is going to experience a massive decrease in QOL, their HDI was at one time in the top 10 in the world and by 2030 it will fall to 45th below Libya and right above Malaysia. Sweden is a small country of under 10 million, Swedes will be a minority in their own country within 30-50 years at the rate they're going. Their generous welfare state is broke and collapsing.


And this is precisely why the concept of nation fails. You see it happening all around. It's not a viable concept.


It does fail when it is undermined like this. The welfare state is impossible with open borders, its not compassion but rather a hatred of your own people to do that your own country. Open borders can only work if you eliminate all welfare, public services, or are just a place nobody wants to go. Billions of people might want to immigrate to America or Europe, we can't support them and there wouldn't be an America or Europe any more at that point. Looking at these refugee boats, they look like they're are mostly well fed military aged men so maybe they should go do something about what is happening in their countries. Showing the few women and children is just emotionally exploitive, it's not representative. How about we train these military aged men and send them back to fight? Do they not have the will? Maybe they're not all that moderate... How many of these people are even actually fleeing warzones? Is there any way to vet that? Is there any way to vet any of these people?


And yet the floodgates were open for so long and lo and behold, America is still here. Life continues. It's not the end of the world and it doesn't mean ultimate collapse or failure. The real enemies are pessimism and panic along with a healthy dose of denial which the US has in abundance at the moment. Self fulfilling prophecies often come true.


Are you happy with the country? I'm not. I do not think this country is going in the right direction and the the overwhelming majority of the country agrees with that, things can get worse. If you are poor then you should opposed unfettered immigration because it disproportionately punishes you more than any one else. Those country club Chamber of Commerce Republicans want more immigration to keep wages and benefits down, they live in gated communities with maids and butlers so that is there experience with it. I went to public school and there shouldn't be any dumby mayor in this country bragging about 62 languages being spoken every day in their schools, ESL kids are at tremendous disadvantage and for many that's not their only issue either so many essentially have no shot at ever rising above the circumstances they were born in so what do you think will happen to them when they grow up?

We need to care about poor people in this country but we don't, everything benefits the rich.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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04 Sep 2015, 3:24 pm

Jacoby wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

Are you happy with the country? I'm not. I do not think this country is going in the right direction and the the overwhelming majority of the country agrees with that, things can get worse. If you are poor then you should opposed unfettered immigration because it disproportionately punishes you more than any one else. Those country club Chamber of Commerce Republicans want more immigration to keep wages and benefits down, they live in gated communities with maids and butlers so that is there experience with it. I went to public school and there shouldn't be any dumby mayor in this country bragging about 62 languages being spoken every day in their schools, ESL kids are at tremendous disadvantage and for many that's not their only issue either so many essentially have no shot at ever rising above the circumstances they were born in so what do you think will happen to them when they grow up?

We need to care about poor people in this country but we don't, everything benefits the rich.


ESL kids get their own teacher's aides where I live, and their parents make thousands of dollars up here hammering shingles onto roofs or waiting tables than they could ever make in those Mexican border towns. They can also find better housing. There's plenty of incentive for them to migrate here and many of these aren't even illegal. You are led to believe most of them are but this isn't the case. I don't see very many white Americans clamoring to work on roofs when it's ninety-five degrees outside.

As for limiting the number of people who enter the country, on paper it's a good idea because these people often do not make high wages, live below the poverty line, and require lots of medical and housing help from the government. Their kids who are born here are automatically citizens so unless they are few of the very fortunate who have parents who climb out of poverty, the kids will require state help as well. So they take a lot of money that would normally go for the poor who were born here. In order to actually limit them, you do have to behave like a fascist of some sort and it was the Communists Americans were so pissed at during the Cold War who were the most guilty of this and Americans moaned about that for years! So, were the communists correct all along and America was in the wrong when it insisted the walls come down and everyone be free?

Thing is, even if the walls go back up, people won't be happy then, either. They will be yammering for the walls to come down and won't stop until they are, then, they will holler about them going back up again! Americans are programmed to never be satisfied. It's how our culture is designed. Create people who are chronically miserable so they will be whining and more importantly BUYING, never being happy with anything. Our economy and civilization are built on the notion chronically unhappy people will forever be willing to put down cash hoping it will alleviate their sorrow and longing yet it's never enough because the mind has trained, you see, to never accept satisfaction, because, it would put a stop to the spending cycle and send the country into an economic downturn.


So, to address your concerns, it doesn't suprise me in the least you or 30 million others are unhappy and stay that way chronically and steadfastly. It is how you have been conditioned and what is expected of you. You would be considered abnormal if you stayed satisfied for any duration of time.



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04 Sep 2015, 6:01 pm

Last years thousands, this years hundreds of thousands, next year millions. Over the next few decades, billions.

These people are not fleeing wars, they are chasing money.

There are examples, Gypsies came from India, they are not yet European.

Europe as populated as India will not be Europe.

Eastern Europe is looking to the East.

With trade down China has all these unused ships and containers. They could send a million a year forever.

We should send back the Statue of Liberty.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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04 Sep 2015, 7:40 pm

Inventor wrote:
Last years thousands, this years hundreds of thousands, next year millions. Over the next few decades, billions.

These people are not fleeing wars, they are chasing money.

There are examples, Gypsies came from India, they are not yet European.

Europe as populated as India will not be Europe.

Eastern Europe is looking to the East.

With trade down China has all these unused ships and containers. They could send a million a year forever.

We should send back the Statue of Liberty.


Look at all those people that came to America from Europe. They became Americans. So, what makes you think every example is like the Roma of Europe?
The opposite has indeed happened in the US - people from all over the world came and pretty much became American in a generation.



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04 Sep 2015, 11:47 pm

From Europe, Christian, pork eating drinkers.

Chinese stayed in China Town, some third generation never learned English.

Islam, Mexican, Blacks, tend to stay in their own community.

African Blacks become Americans better than American Blacks.

The Islamic world was raised to believe the west is populated by demons.

I know my local Islamic community. I fix computers. They were told we were evil, had language problems, mostly they wanted Skype to call home. They have a narrow world view. They are amazed I know where their countries are, their history, cities, politics, then they clam up because I must be planning on invading them. They live in fear.

They have all been stepped on by Europeans, occupied, murdered, and there is a historic distrust. Recent, and back to the Crusades, people who look like us kill people like them.

The Chinese Empire was brought down by gun boats, opium, and people who look like us. We supported the last few governments that killed many, before the communists killed millions and created the modern China. We fought China in Korea, they supported Vietnam, there has been a lot of blood shed. Chinese people have a deep distrust of us.

Japan banned us until forced open by gun boats. They had a bad reaction to western colonies in Asia. Nuked they still do not apologize for WWII, we do have a history of picking fights with people we can beat up.

White European Christians can blend into a single culture. Their language all has Indo European roots.

The Islamic world has an alien language, they are Semites who lack Neanderthal genes. they are alien in language, genetics, culture, religion.

China does share Neanderthal genes, but the language is very different, both spoken and written. They have always had a much larger population, so they have more family clan village connections than larger group nation world. The Chinese do not think like we do. We process math in different parts of the brain.

Both Islamic and Chinese people have stayed within their own groups in America. So did the Chinese in Southeast Asia. For a long time they were forbidden to leave China. Take a vacation, death.

There are not European Refugees, they are Semites, Africans, Arabs, Pakistani, Afghani.

We are all genetically hardwired in our own way.

We all have human nature, which shows in a will to dominate, kill, enslave, that all groups have shown to their neighbors, and Europeans showed the world for the last five hundred years.

These economic invaders will not become ordinary Europeans in a generation. They will retain their language, customs, religion, and view it as their conquest of new lands. Letting them in is proving you are too dumb and weak to survive. It will be like Jesus telling the American colonists to kill the Native Americans, It started slowly in 1600, and became a full blood bath from 1840 to 1895.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, were a mistake, but there is no reason for unlimited immigration of young men from West Africa to Europe. They just want free money, housing, food , health care, and to make it like home.



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05 Sep 2015, 9:04 am

Inventor wrote:
From Europe, Christian, pork eating drinkers.

Chinese stayed in China Town, some third generation never learned English.

Islam, Mexican, Blacks, tend to stay in their own community.

African Blacks become Americans better than American Blacks.

The Islamic world was raised to believe the west is populated by demons.

I know my local Islamic community. I fix computers. They were told we were evil, had language problems, mostly they wanted Skype to call home. They have a narrow world view. They are amazed I know where their countries are, their history, cities, politics, then they clam up because I must be planning on invading them. They live in fear.

They have all been stepped on by Europeans, occupied, murdered, and there is a historic distrust. Recent, and back to the Crusades, people who look like us kill people like them.

The Chinese Empire was brought down by gun boats, opium, and people who look like us. We supported the last few governments that killed many, before the communists killed millions and created the modern China. We fought China in Korea, they supported Vietnam, there has been a lot of blood shed. Chinese people have a deep distrust of us.

Japan banned us until forced open by gun boats. They had a bad reaction to western colonies in Asia. Nuked they still do not apologize for WWII, we do have a history of picking fights with people we can beat up.

White European Christians can blend into a single culture. Their language all has Indo European roots.

The Islamic world has an alien language, they are Semites who lack Neanderthal genes. they are alien in language, genetics, culture, religion.

China does share Neanderthal genes, but the language is very different, both spoken and written. They have always had a much larger population, so they have more family clan village connections than larger group nation world. The Chinese do not think like we do. We process math in different parts of the brain.

Both Islamic and Chinese people have stayed within their own groups in America. So did the Chinese in Southeast Asia. For a long time they were forbidden to leave China. Take a vacation, death.

There are not European Refugees, they are Semites, Africans, Arabs, Pakistani, Afghani.

We are all genetically hardwired in our own way.

We all have human nature, which shows in a will to dominate, kill, enslave, that all groups have shown to their neighbors, and Europeans showed the world for the last five hundred years.

These economic invaders will not become ordinary Europeans in a generation. They will retain their language, customs, religion, and view it as their conquest of new lands. Letting them in is proving you are too dumb and weak to survive. It will be like Jesus telling the American colonists to kill the Native Americans, It started slowly in 1600, and became a full blood bath from 1840 to 1895.

Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, were a mistake, but there is no reason for unlimited immigration of young men from West Africa to Europe. They just want free money, housing, food , health care, and to make it like home.


That's so untrue. The vast majority become Americanized in a generation. They speak English and work with Americans. There are exceptions but it's not the majority of them. Look at all the American immigrants who became Americanized. You and I are their descendants and we know nothing but American. We are both typing American to each other and participate in typical American life. So we are living proof, people do change.



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05 Sep 2015, 11:44 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Europe reaping what they sowed in Libya and Turkey has proven what type of ally they really are. How can Europe add more people to its welfare roles when it can't support the people actually from there? I don't really believe that all the refugees are escaping death but rather more just economic immigrants who see a better easier life. It's impossible, if everybody who wanted to live in Europe or America could then there would 4-5 billion people on those continents. People need to fix their own countries, we need to stop blowing them up. If you take them, more will come. It is inevitable and European countries aren't that big, adding 800k foreigners is going to fundementally change the fabric of your society. Sweden 50 years from now is not going to look like a European country.



Does it matter if Sweden looks like a European country? What does that mean, exactly, anyway?


Sweden is going to experience a massive decrease in QOL, their HDI was at one time in the top 10 in the world and by 2030 it will fall to 45th below Libya and right above Malaysia. Sweden is a small country of under 10 million, Swedes will be a minority in their own country within 30-50 years at the rate they're going. Their generous welfare state is broke and collapsing.


And this is precisely why the concept of nation fails. You see it happening all around. It's not a viable concept.


It does fail when it is undermined like this. The welfare state is impossible with open borders, its not compassion but rather a hatred of your own people to do that your own country. Open borders can only work if you eliminate all welfare, public services, or are just a place nobody wants to go. Billions of people might want to immigrate to America or Europe, we can't support them and there wouldn't be an America or Europe any more at that point. Looking at these refugee boats, they look like they're are mostly well fed military aged men so maybe they should go do something about what is happening in their countries. Showing the few women and children is just emotionally exploitive, it's not representative. How about we train these military aged men and send them back to fight? Do they not have the will? Maybe they're not all that moderate... How many of these people are even actually fleeing warzones? Is there any way to vet that? Is there any way to vet any of these people?


And yet the floodgates were open for so long and lo and behold, America is still here. Life continues. It's not the end of the world and it doesn't mean ultimate collapse or failure. The real enemies are pessimism and panic along with a healthy dose of denial which the US has in abundance at the moment. Self fulfilling prophecies often come true.


Some things are sustainable and some things are not, with unfettered immigration and the destruction of the American worker our QOL will fall and services will dry up and infrastructure will fail as resources get stretched thinner to accommodate people that broke the law. I do not agree that there is no solution which is what it sounds like you are saying, the physical border can be secured but it will cost money but it's still a way cheaper more useful way of waving our dicks around than invading some country like our country usually does and we'll actually have something to show for it when it is done.

The easiest thing we can do is just policy change with our visa and work programs, a large amount of the illegals just overstay their visa and never leave so we can look at this from both ends by denying entry to the likely overstayers and monitoring and deporting those who do. There are at least something like 11 million illegal immigrants in the US, some people put the number as high as 30 million(Mexico's former ambassador to the US) so this is not a problem that will be solved overnight. Amnesty can't be considered until the border is secured and it should be subtracted from the number of legal immigrant that we would admit in their place. I do like Trump's idea of leveraging Mexico because they have taken advantage of us for far too long, if they took care of their southern border and didn't give these central Americans(who Mexicans are highly racist against and don't want in their country) free transport to the US then it wouldn't be nearly as big of a problem for us. Start taxing these remittance payments to Mexico or put a tariff on them, they will start behaving because they will have no choice economically.



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05 Sep 2015, 12:09 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
The path to prosperous heartland of northwest Europe (UK, France, Germany, Sweden) where the refugees are headed goes through the less affluent Balkan south east of Europe. If you were an east european country on the throughway you would pretty much have to adopt one of two opposite responses to the new influx of refugees: either shepherd them through your country as fast as possible so none of them stay ( pass the hot potato westward), or to build a great wall of china at your eastern border to stop them. It would be nice if they did the former, but I cant totally blame them for doing the latter. But I don't blame the refugees for being refugees, and doing what I would do in their shoes: flee the war zones of middle east after their homes have been destroyed. As AspE said above "its complex".


This is why they need some kind of organized response from the EU and aide workers. So they can go back home eventually. They need to figure out where they will stay ahead of time and send them there. Turkey needs to get involved.


Basically this. The EU, and Turkey, and all parties, should figure out a unified organized response to the crises.

But even that would be short term.

In the long run whats most desirable is stopping the flood at the source. The war in Syria has not stopped, ISIS is still there, Assad is still there, and the war is expanding into Iraq. So Europe cant send the refugees back yet, and more refugees will come.

The EU/NATO could...launch a war of its own: invade and conquer Syria and set up its own puppet regime ala George W. Bush's invasion of Iraq- just to restore order, and to stop the flow of refugees. That would work peachy keen for a few years. And then the puppet state would fall apart (like Iraq is now), and we will have the same problem all over again.



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05 Sep 2015, 1:47 pm

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The Islamic world has an alien language, they are Semites who lack Neanderthal genes. they are alien in language, genetics, culture, religion.


The Islamic world includes Indonesia (249.9 million) and other huge non-Semitic populations such as Iran, Turkey, Nigeria and Pakistan.

In fact, compared to the Muslim non-Semitic population, Muslim Semites would be a minority

Are you supposing too that the Jews didn't blend well with Europeans because of their supposedly Semitic ancestry?


As for the neanderthals:
http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/ ... iddle-east.

Middle Easterns themselves had been very mixed with Europeans, where do you think the common dirty-blonde hair among Syrians came from? Most scientific evidences showed that the blonde gene came originally from northern Europe.



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05 Sep 2015, 5:24 pm

True about Islam. Very broad, but the mid east is Semite.

Neanderthal genes are on the male line, so those Slave girls bought in better times did not carry them.

My reply was directed at OAnaO who points out how well White Christian Northern Europeans merged in America.

The less in common, Genetics, Language, Religion, the less two groups will merge.

Jews are a good example, they never merged. Even bred European they never fit in, were driven out of every country, and killed more times than I can list.

West Africans in America have never merged, and after hundreds of years African males between fifteen and fifty, about 3% of the population, commit more than half of the violent crime. 30,000 rapes, 11,000 murders, a year.

Not saying it is not our problem, it is, but Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon are hosting the Middle Eastern Refugees. Food rations are being cut because the UN does not have enough money. People are living in tents without heat, and it snows. Children lack schools, and medical care is limited. The Palestinians show that refugee problems can last.

We do not need Europe invaded, we need to fully fund the problem at the source. Women, children, the old and infirm could be airlifted to Europe, and real housing, hospitals, schools built.

It would also help if we quit funding ISIS. If Syria falls, Lebanon and Jordan will be the front line.

Just what Germany will spent in a year on 800,000 would build new modern cities in Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan, with roads, water, sewer, and a modern economy.

They are doing the most, are closest to the problem, speak the language, and we should be funding them. If it get worse, we should be funding them, and if it gets better, refugees go home, they get to keep the cities.

Building produces jobs, income at many levels, and if we want people to deal with our problems, we should pay for it. Several ten billion a year will be spent in Europe, it would be better spent in Lebanon.

I see that people have differences, but beyond that we have things in common.



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05 Sep 2015, 9:33 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
The path to prosperous heartland of northwest Europe (UK, France, Germany, Sweden) where the refugees are headed goes through the less affluent Balkan south east of Europe. If you were an east european country on the throughway you would pretty much have to adopt one of two opposite responses to the new influx of refugees: either shepherd them through your country as fast as possible so none of them stay ( pass the hot potato westward), or to build a great wall of china at your eastern border to stop them. It would be nice if they did the former, but I cant totally blame them for doing the latter. But I don't blame the refugees for being refugees, and doing what I would do in their shoes: flee the war zones of middle east after their homes have been destroyed. As AspE said above "its complex".


This is why they need some kind of organized response from the EU and aide workers. So they can go back home eventually. They need to figure out where they will stay ahead of time and send them there. Turkey needs to get involved.


Basically this. The EU, and Turkey, and all parties, should figure out a unified organized response to the crises.

But even that would be short term.

In the long run whats most desirable is stopping the flood at the source. The war in Syria has not stopped, ISIS is still there, Assad is still there, and the war is expanding into Iraq. So Europe cant send the refugees back yet, and more refugees will come.

The EU/NATO could...launch a war of its own: invade and conquer Syria and set up its own puppet regime ala George W. Bush's invasion of Iraq- just to restore order, and to stop the flow of refugees. That would work peachy keen for a few years. And then the puppet state would fall apart (like Iraq is now), and we will have the same problem all over again.


We have to live with Assad, it would be better for the US to work with the Russians and Iranians. We have to remind the Saudis and the other Arab Gulf states who butters their bread and either they can cease in their funding of terrorist groups or be considered the enemy. There is no moderate alternative that has any better claim to power, Syria was a relatively stable country not that long ago and one that didn't persecute religious minorities or secularists. It's not our place to decide who leads a country, stability and the least amount of bloodshed is what is in our best interest.

I feel like right now, if there was a major terrorist attack that they could win support for another invasion for what will be a war that spans both Syria and Iraq. If these neocons have their way with Iran, then it would essentially be a world war.



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05 Sep 2015, 9:43 pm

As for the OP's question of why Americans have become so hardhearted in regard to the plight of refugees:
I think too many of us Americans forget who our ancestors were, why they came here, and what they were running away from back home. Otherwise, we'd be a lot more sympathetic.


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05 Sep 2015, 11:06 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
And yet the floodgates were open for so long and lo and behold, America is still here.


And how did Texas join the USA, if not for the massive immigration of Americans into that territory when it was still part of Mexico? This sounds more like the naive belief that such a thing could never happen to the USA itself.



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06 Sep 2015, 12:28 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Syrians are fleeing their homes in Asia and moving onto safer locations in Europe but not with the approval of Europeans and some are reacting in ways reminiscent of Nazis or Communists, by putting up dangerous fences and siccing cops on immigrants at train stations. When the local news broadcast the Hungarians calling off their raid on immigrants, the local media acted incredulous, like these poor refugees fleeing from wars in their homeland, should be treated like terrorists with no access to the justice system or rights of any kind. Why is it Americans have become so incredibly hard hearted to people's suffering, mimicking the way Nazis or Communists were indifferent and hard hearted toward it? It is a troublesome phenomena Americans are increasingly indifferent to human suffering.


I fail to understand how any country can be stupid enough to accept refugees who would just as soon wipe their hosts from the face of the Earth.

And all refugees, once the so-called reason they are refugees is eliminated, should be sent back home. After all, they are refugees, not immigrants.



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06 Sep 2015, 12:31 am

[quote="Grebels"]It is possible to deny climate change but not the consequences.[/quote

People do that all the time. They act like it is some kind of disaster.



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06 Sep 2015, 12:47 am

eric76 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Syrians are fleeing their homes in Asia and moving onto safer locations in Europe but not with the approval of Europeans and some are reacting in ways reminiscent of Nazis or Communists, by putting up dangerous fences and siccing cops on immigrants at train stations. When the local news broadcast the Hungarians calling off their raid on immigrants, the local media acted incredulous, like these poor refugees fleeing from wars in their homeland, should be treated like terrorists with no access to the justice system or rights of any kind. Why is it Americans have become so incredibly hard hearted to people's suffering, mimicking the way Nazis or Communists were indifferent and hard hearted toward it? It is a troublesome phenomena Americans are increasingly indifferent to human suffering.


I fail to understand how any country can be stupid enough to accept refugees who would just as soon wipe their hosts from the face of the Earth.

And all refugees, once the so-called reason they are refugees is eliminated, should be sent back home. After all, they are refugees, not immigrants.


By that reasoning, both Ted Cruz's and Marco Rubio's families should then go back to Cuba.


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