If racist speech will get you ruined, why is insulting..?

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That is the point I'm making such policy doesn't work.



I have no reason to insult you personally. Ad-hominem isn't my game. However if people want to make criticism of Mohamed they should be able to do so. Just like they can do so for Joseph Smith.

Jesus get quite a lot of criticism too.

Does this High Mufti's word weigh heavier than the Koran and the hadith?

Allah to Job.

The Hadith relates a story in which a woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires. (Bukhari (72:715))



If it is no big deal, then it should not matter if women choose not to do so. Tell me again what the Afghan and Saudi Virtue Police do to women who do that? "Value them for their intellect" is not the right answer. And is what they're doing perhaps supported by sharia?



Well, the Barbary States didn't get that memo, and started the first war against the newly founded United States of America by boarding american vessels and taking americans as slaves with explicit reference to the Koran as their authority to do so.




Race is a trait which the person in question cannot control. A religion is a set of ideas independent of a person. No matter how many believe in it ever so sincerely, it must stand or fall on its own merits, and not be shielded from criticism by the hurt feelings of those that subscribe to it.

Also, the claim that Muhammad only fought in self defense is an outright lie.



and furthermore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... f_Muhammad

yes, this mufti's word ranks higher than an unbeliever's petty attempt at understanding the Qur'an and hadeeth, documents which take years of study, as each verse in the Qur'an and each hadeeth addressed a specific problem at a specific time, and the use of that revelation served as an example for later generations... there is an entire science dedicated to interpreting the Qur'an, it's called tafsir. for the last time, I am not from Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan or any one of those backwards Islamic countries, I am from Turkey. I don't believe in political Islam, but still try to stay a practicing, conservative follower. the problem i see in you is that you are cherry-picking verses without care for context, and there is a reason why there are experts on the Qur'an and hadeeth.... Opening up a Qur'an translation or hadeeth translation and getting knowledge, is very, very dangerous... it is the reason why extremists end up willing to lay down their lives.... it is the reason why salafis, wahhabis, and ahl-al-hadith followers are so extreme. Furthermore, I call bs on those hadeeth.. You must remember that most hadeeth are weak and not supported, meaning they are to be ignored as there is not enough evidence that Muhammad actually said this. There is also an entire science in authenticating hadeeth, rigorously.... And what do YOU know about whether or not Muhammad was defending himself or not? He only spent 11 hours of his life in combat, and mostly to fight the Makkans who were hellbent on his death and his religion's destruction... After being badly persecuted in Makkah and fleeing with his followers to Yathrib (later known as Madinah), the Makkans still did not have enough and tried to destroy the Muslims since many tribes in Arabia were converting to Islam. As or the verse of Job, you completely missed the point. Job swore that he would beat his wife a hundred times when she left him when he was ill, and when he got better, he felt bad about his oath and God told him a loophole... get a bundle of grass and beat her with it.... That was the whole point of the story. Just because some Muslims took Americans as slaves, does not mean it is sanctioned in the Qur'an... The Ottoman empire was in decline at the time, and was desperate to keep ahold of it's navy power over trade, ina desperate attempt to remain powerful economically. If you want to study Islam, study the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) not what some Muslims did a millenium after his death. And yes, slaves were meant to be freed over time. Muhammad only bought slaves so as to free them. Part of the money from zakat is used to emancipate slaves who are trying to buy their freedom (zakat is a 2.5 percent tax on your net worth that goes to charity.) Also, many sins, even slapping your slave or joking about freeing your slave, or breaking your fast, or punished by freeing slaves. The only way slaves are made slaves are when men are killed in warfare.

I prefer nonbeliever to unbeliever.

There are nonbelievers who have studied the Quran for years too. Both from within the faith and as academics.

There are Muftis like Turan Dursun who became nonbelivers, he wrote several books on Islam.

He would have been able to give you average Imans a run for their money on knowledge of the Quran

Appeal to authority, with circular true believer argument is not the same as directly refuting.

I am totally aware that Islam was not historically as awful as it is today in for example Saudi Arabia. The muslim world is a big place, and different places have different traditions, and quite a lot of so-called muslim countries were in fact very multicultural. The Jewish diaspora has traditionally contributed a lot to Middle Eastern countries.

I don't think the Grand Mufti of Zimbabwe speaks for all muslims. Secondly there is agreement among a lot of scholars that not all hadiths are genuine, although I don't know which ones they are talking about. It seems a lot of the bad things said about women come from the hadiths. I may be wrong about that though, maybe you could enlighten me?



Yes, yes, cover your hair yourself if you like it, just don't tell anybody else to do it. The heat and the itching would drive me crazy, I'm kinda happy I'm not muslim. The thing about being valued for my intellect - they should already be doing it. I don't tell you to dress in a certain way for me to respect you. All this says is that muslim families have very low expectations of their sons' ability to learn manners.



Actually, the American civil war probably saved untold generations from slavery, torture and murder. When was slavery abolished in the muslim world, in general? Multiply the populations of slaves every year by the number of years since Muhammed invaded Mecca, and you get a rough estimate of the number of slave years caused by the lack of action. Muhammed should have done the right thing. But he was a politician, not a moral philosopher.



I should think so! You notice how you talk about women, not muslim women? That's one of the things that really bug me. I hear all these muslim men say women this, women that. Like they have some kind of authority over all women and that all women should live by their rules, when in fact these rules only apply to muslim women.



Yes, I always thought this seemed a bit unrealistic. Historically, people didn't have enough money to live perfectly separate lives and have two of everything, etc. Although that can be solved by giving one group much worse living standards than the other, which is demonstrated by the example of racial segregation. That said, people who live real lives can't get too hung up on religious ideas, they need to put food on the table, and to do that, they need to cooperate.



Yes. I think this is one of the reasons why all the muslim countries are so corrupt. This kind of thinking leads to tribalism, and tribalism leads to nepotism, corruption and weak democracies. I also think this creates conflicts and favouritism within the family. Also, I think it is morally wrong that women don't contribute to the family budget. A family should be a unit, not a collection of special interests.



Yes, and it is worrying the regime. The Iranian state has started introducing restrictions on which educations are open to women, engineering being one where the cutbacks are severe. They are obviously aware that an informed public is difficult to control. Call me when they elect a female president.



Hihi. So the women are not distracted by the butts? Man, you have a lot to learn Sorry, this is probably my religious tradition crashing with yours. I'm from a Nordic Lutheran tradition, and protestantism generally has a big problem with vanity and self-importance. Read Bunyan: "The Pilgrim's Progress".

I remember when I first started meeting muslim women, I was so shocked by how they were obsessed with their appearance and wearing lots of makeup. Now your average teenager is like that, but for my generation it is still difficult to get used to. I couldn't believe they were buying into the madonna/whore false dilemma.

Generally, I have never heard any muslim authority talk about anything that actually matters. They'll talk about how women and men should behave towards each other until the cows come home and happily ignore the topics of corruption and family violence, which is what really affects people's lives.

Basically, my biggest problem with the Koran is the hate speech it contains. Don't get me wrong, if you sit and read the Old Testament, there is plently of hate speech to be had. Both books make me very happy that we live in a modern, secular world.

Me, a neurodiverse woman? I'd be murdered.

When did Islam become a race, can anyone tell me when?

Sorry, but criticizing a religion that you CHOOSE to be apart of is not racism. All religions are open to criticism, you have the ability to ignore it and not take offense to it. Do we really want to end up like Saudi Arabia and kill people for criticizing it? It's the 21st century, not the 7th century.

No, silly, you would not be murdered. Dress code (hijab, etc.) was never enforced.... And yes, the Qur'an does contain a lot of hate speech but was mostly figurative speech to deal with the anger the Muslims felt toward the Makkan polytheists who were hellbent on their destruction. Anyway, Muhammad (PBUH) stopped receiving revelation in 630 AD, when the Muslims took back Makkah. Maybe you'd be murdered for leaving Islam, but I don't think that applies anymore. I go by civil islam, not political Islam... If only the Muslim world, would, too. They never learn.... You can not have a political system based on Islam, because even then, there would be fights as to WHAT interpretation of Islam, and fights over God or country are more dangerous than just about anything else.

Apostasy executions still exist today and you have to be blind to deny it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... faith.html

Hell, in Saudi Arabia they kill people for witchcraft, something that has been proven to be false. Explain that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_o ... udi_Arabia (I know wikipedia can be edited by everyone yeah, but there are credible sources)

you can like arabs, but think their religion is goofy.

What does sin have to do with hair? Anyway, the whole headscarf thing is incredibly insulting. I also think that you are in a minority - I think that in most muslim cultures, blaming women for everything that goes wrong is quite usual. Victim blaming is so uncharming.





What's this got to do with you? I was talking about the whole muslim world, not just Turkey. In any case, that is way too long. So it is only right to critizise Muhammed for his moral failings.



I would agree on that. I think you should all become atheists, or at least Christians or Buddhists, then there would be less crime. In my country, muslims are a small minority, yet half the prison population is muslim. Apparently, our most law-abiding citizens are of Chinese origin I sincerely believe that Islam actively discourages the natural feelings of friendship, empathy, kindness and honesty.

and Islam says that ties to the Ummah (Muslim community) is more important than any other tie, including family or tribal ties.[/quote]

I think the concept of Ummah is one of the things that makes non-muslims feel the most contempt for Islam. Ok, neglecting your family in favor of religion is something you find in all religions, but this idea of a community who gets a VIP pass for decent treatment is vile. I have heard a lot of screaming by muslims about how some other muslims are being badly treated, but I have never as yet heard muslims speak up for oppressed people who are not muslim.



Really....Well, that is easy to solve. Just introduce 30-hour weeks for everybody. It is not right that men should neglect their families like that.



Man, you guys need to do something about the butt problem This has been going on for more than a thousand years, time someone fixed it I never thought I'd write that sentence



I'm not talking about dress code. I would be so dead if I had to live in a muslim country. I'm extrovert and socially clumsy. I have a hard time understanding gender roles. I find it really hard to learn things that don't make sense to me, and Islam *really* doesn't make sense. It's like always trying to figure out what a fifteen year old boy would think in any given situation. I am not a fifteen year old boy, never have been. Muslim men are really mean to me, the bullying behavior is just so much worse than from other ethnic groups.

To survive as a woman in a muslim country you have to be good at lying and escaping notice, things I suck at.

I think we agree that people ought to interpret holy books in context, I just don't think it is going to happen. Despite a lot of protestations to the contrary, I think that Islam is so authoritarian and so useful for corrupt governments that it helps them keep people uninformed and distracted.

Why do I take the time to write this? This is one of the few places I feel safe to write what I really think. I used to live in an area with a large muslim population, and the misunderstandings and the rudeness of the men really got to me over time. I've spent a lot of time getting to know muslims from different parts of the world, but I've never discussed religion with any of them because it wasn't appropriate and because I worry about repercussions against my family - I have children.

It's such a relief to have moved away from it all. Islam is no longer something I have to wrap my head around in daily life, which lightens the cognitive load a lot.

there one goes. you show your true colors. often, middle eastern people will come crying pleading for a bit of slack and claiming racism etc, but when they do get a foothold, off come the civilized disguises and on go the costumes of conquest. by your rejoicement at the prospect of jewish presence dwindling and islamic presence becoming more prominent, you show that it is for your race that you wish to stake your claim on the world.

in a way, i think it is a conciliatory approach for non muslims to blame your religion for your unpalatability as cohabitants in the western world. one could be truly racist and claim that it is unfortunately a genetic trait in arabic people to be prone to violence and dishonesty. i do not believe that, but it is curious that you wear out your welcome wherever you go because of your attitudes. asians are now liked and negros are now liked and gays are now liked in this modern era of fair thinking, but for some reason, the whole world which is beholden to the shackles of PC'dom makes an exception in your case.

i saw a clip of some refugees (a few thousand) who were waiting to be admitted into a country (i think hungary), and hungarians were welcoming them with open arms and concerned for their welfare, but they had to be admitted in in an orderly file, and as they waited to go through the gate to their "salvation", they were spitting on the ground and smoking and flicking their cigarette buts away in a rude manner, and they started jostling among themselves to push ahead in a line to the gate that they knew they were eventually going to get through anyway.

it is difficult to imagine other people's being so selfish and just plain impudent to each other and their benefactors. then more heard of the opportunity to get through the gate, and although they knew that the full quota was already ahead of them in line, they nevertheless stampeded into all and sundry to try to ensure they get through the gate by force rather than fairness, and as usual with those types of people, riots started to erupt and soon it was out with the rubber bullets and tear gas to drive back the tsunami of angry belligerent spitting people who had worn out their welcome before they even got in.

europe seemed to be very willing to assimilate large populations of refugees into their countries at first, but now most of them are talking about the tsunami and how to protect themselves from the onslaught.

i do not know about islam in any way, i simply know that even the most forgiving of people seem to be disillusioned with people from that region.
it is not racist to observe and describe what one sees.

To perfectly clear: you are citing this specific Mufti, the Grand Mufti of a small African nation whose population is 1% muslim and 80% protestant christian as being THE proper authority over the worlds 1 billion muslims with regards to the legality of beating your wife, beating out all the dissenting positions held by religious figures across the muslim world, for the singular reason that you agree with him? I think your accusation of cherry-picking is a case of projection, and why would I not cherry-pick when your alleged holy book is such a metaphorical cherry orchard?

And if these specific instances are held up as examples to be emulated later, then your "specific problem, specific time" excuse flies right out the window. Also, are you alleging that unless I accept a proposed idea beforehand, I have no business criticising it? Unless I agree with it, I can't say it's wrong? Do you see how circular this is?

Also, "petty unbeliever" must be the most adorable ad hominem I've ever had leveled at me.


Interpreting the koran is not a science. It could be, at best, academic. And if you are "analyzing" a text considered holy a priori by a religion that you already subscribe to, you are in for bias to the point of uselessness.



You've said you were born and raised in the USA, so that would make you of Turkish descent, at best. And why does that matter one bit? We are talking about islam, not about you. You are not islam.

Also, Turkey is a secular republic with no official state religion and only recently lifted a ban on wearing the hijab in public institutions on pain of arrest. Somehow, I don't exactly see Turkey as an example of the average muslim nation.


See above.


Are you suggesting that the extremists don't speak arabic? Or are you going to try the tired old "Arabic is hard, so all these incitements to slay the infidels only appear in translations"-malarkey?



Again, translations cause extremism? I think maybe a few of them don't actually need translations.


Not my problem. As far as "most": this particular hadeeth was from al-bukhari, whose hadeeth collection is apparently regarded as second only to the koran itself in terms of authenticity by Sunni scholars.



Also not science.



11 hours seems awfully specific. Source on that? Seems a bit short, seeing as the Battle of the Trench alone lasted for 27 days. Also, for allegedly not being a warlord, Muhammed was exceedingly adept at being a warlord.

Here is a problem you have; Muhammed's life is a matter of (relatively)recorded history. "Badly persecuted" as you term it here, means the following: Muhammed himself had animal viscera thrown at while praying (and one alleged assassination attempt without citation), 2 muslim slaves were killed, 7 or 8 muslim slaves were tortured and/or beaten, and two daughters of Muhammed were divorced. These are the specifically recorded ones, I'm sure there were lots more, but it still seems petty to list divorce as an instance of persecution. I'm not defending that this happened, but as far as historical persecutions go, this looks pretty tame.

Also, Muhammed had at least two people murdered for writing poetry about him. Rather hostile poetry, mind, but still.

I'll also point out that this persecution came about because Muhammed and his followers criticised and insulted the polytheists beliefs. You know, kind of exactly the same thing you are now trying to be shielded from.




So, what I take from this is that the almighty creator of the universe has to compromise with a mere mortal to get his way, and that in arabic "green branch" and "bundle of grass" are synonyms, homonyms or at least homophones.

Surely an easier resolution would go something like this:

Job: I swear I will beat my wife 100 times for leaving me while I was sick.
God: I forbid it.
Job: I submit to God.
THE END



Nor does it disprove that claim.

"In March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied that:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once."


Neither excuses it nor makes it right. And is it not curious that the very first reason they present for taking slaves is a religious one, rather than literally any other?


Except if I do, you will say I'm insulting your prophet by looking at the things his own holy book says he did, and then claim that he was a product of his time and I shouldn't read him out of context. Instead, I elect to look at what Islam has been, what it is, and what it desperately needs: a reformation. Make no mistake, I know Judaism and Christianity are just as full of immoral insanity as Islam is. But Islam is centuries younger than are those religions, and has not had the same time to cool off and devolve into the same "humanism playing dress-up"-style of religion that usually follows when a secular state holds the political and financial power, and the faith is reduced to trying to make friends instead of dictating terms.

But since you offered me such a cordial invite, let me make you one in turn: I may not be the Archangel Jabreel, but I invite you to read. Read everything you can. Do not limit yourself to religious texts and religious thoughts. I promise you that there is, at an absolute minimum, as much morality, ethics and knowledge in the works of secular thinkers as in religious ones. Read science, and understand how and why it has provided more for more people in the last 400 or so years than religion did for millenia before it. Read literature, and understand its impact and importance. Read the texts of other faiths, living or dead, and see the differences and the similarities. A sharp mind will serve you far better than any given metric of faith ever will.


That's actually an idea I can respect, even if mandatory charity seems to be a contradiction in terms.


So, Islam permits necromancy?

Criticism is fine but I see a lot more outright insult, mockery and blanket assumptions and even implications they should be barred certain rights such as running for president directed at muslims in general than actual criticism of Islam itself.

Do you mean here on this forum, or in the US, or in the world in general?

No one should be barred from being president for being a certain faith. I have no issues with most Muslims I've met in real life, I have an issue with the religion. Same can be said for Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, met a bunch of nice ones, don't like the religions at all.

Nobody said it was.



Nobody said it was.