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foxman
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20 Apr 2007, 12:39 am

JonnyBGoode wrote:
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To make the question more accessible...how do christians, who's religion is based on a concept of love, support a religion that proposes that a good number of their friends (and/or family) be sent to hell?

Because love without justice is just sap.


How are you defining justice? I agere that "unconditional love" is indeed "sap"...we are always responsible for our actions...

I am of the opinion that the concept of an afterlife weakens the resposibility of the individual. Reserving the responsibility of judgement for a higher power absolves the individual of accountability to his peers. If we leave judgement to god, who else is worthy to judge?

Taking it a step further...there are Christian models that emphasize the important of accepting jesus as savior. I have seen evangical comic books in 7-11 restrooms that say that once one truely accepts jesus as one's personal savior, past sins may be forgiven, and one's slate may be wiped clean. In my opinion, this cheapens morality. If we aren't held accountable for the sum of our actions, what is justice?



AlexandertheSolitary
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20 Apr 2007, 2:03 am

foxman wrote:
JonnyBGoode wrote:
foxman wrote:
To make the question more accessible...how do christians, who's religion is based on a concept of love, support a religion that proposes that a good number of their friends (and/or family) be sent to hell?

Because love without justice is just sap.


How are you defining justice? I agere that "unconditional love" is indeed "sap"...we are always responsible for our actions...

I am of the opinion that the concept of an afterlife weakens the resposibility of the individual. Reserving the responsibility of judgement for a higher power absolves the individual of accountability to his peers. If we leave judgement to god, who else is worthy to judge?

Taking it a step further...there are Christian models that emphasize the important of accepting jesus as savior. I have seen evangical comic books in 7-11 restrooms that say that once one truely accepts jesus as one's personal savior, past sins may be forgiven, and one's slate may be wiped clean. In my opinion, this cheapens morality. If we aren't held accountable for the sum of our actions, what is justice?


You have raised a very important point. People do need to be kept accountable for the consequences of their actions. Here repentance should be more than either simply saying sorry or wallowing in abject remorse without actually changing one's actions. Repentance needs to involve actively turning away from our sins. To do otherwise would be to make a mockery of God's grace and a distortion of the Biblical doctrine. In any case, many sins are not only against God but against our fellow human beings, and there is a need for forgiveness and reconciliation from that side, as well as a need to forgive in return.

However, given all are guilty, a need for mercy is pressing as well. Yet what kind of mercy is spoken of? The oppressed world surely cries for justice, even though perhaps few of us could stand absolute justice. Nevertheless, in this world for many people there is neither mercy nor justice. To simply turn a blind eye to all human evil and allow it to continue on indefinitely on its merry, or rather for many, its miserable way to the last syllable of recorded time, would be a strange kind of mercy.

With regard to what has been said about self-righteous, judgemental Christians I concur utterly; this is completely inconsistent, as our own dogma teaches that we are essentially pardoned felons, self-righteousness would appear to be singularly out of place.


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20 Apr 2007, 2:43 am

This approach to the subject is experimental, and it should not be considered a perfectly accurate reflection of my views. I am hoping that this will assist us in gaining insights on the matter. It has a bit of a bite to it.

Remorselessly kow-towing and praying to a god that behaves in such a way is evidence of a sick and demented individual. If you worship such a god, you need to turn yourself in for psychiatric evaluation right now. There is something seriously wrong with you, and innocent people could come to harm. I do not consider this an acceptable or harmless belief. I consider it a sign of deeper, more disturbing issues. Get help. Maybe this sounds like an unusual view to take, but I think that it would help to understand my point of view: I already consider belief in an afterlife an ideation of a deep, psychological rejection of mortality, and I see theism as a sign of a dysfunctional psychological dependency upon authoritative figures. I hold religiosity in extremely harsh criticism, and I don't consider it a natural or healthy condition. Although being religious doesn't necessarily mean that one is mentally disturbed, I don't consider it in the least beneficial.

If I sound unkind, consider the possibility that I'm a little sick of the arrogance of religious people. Those who pointedly abstain from religion are more psychologically healthy, less prone to irrational violence, more educable, less prone to divorce, more honest, more giving, and braver in combat than those who are religious. What do you Christians keep saying about atheists, though? Unsurprisingly, you speak in exact contradiction of the truth. The point is this: in spite of being the most dissed and loathed group in this country, we have shown ourselves to be highly exemplary citizens, which is a radical departure from most popularly disliked minorities. I argue that this doesn't show a benefit in being an atheist, per se. What I think it shows is that religion is the first refuge of the sociopathic, the mentally unsound, the cowardly, the selfish, the slothful, and the vain. I consider religion a magnet for some of the most immoral and repulsive people in society, and I consider belief in Hell an extremely disturbing ideation of dangerous antisocial impulses.



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20 Apr 2007, 6:22 am

lol, yep. I'm an apathetic agnostic, with some humanist leanings. And I still argue that being non-religious makes you more moral. I am a very moral and ethical creature.



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20 Apr 2007, 6:34 am

Griff wrote:
This approach to the subject is experimental, and it should not be considered a perfectly accurate reflection of my views. I am hoping that this will assist us in gaining insights on the matter. It has a bit of a bite to it.

Remorselessly kow-towing and praying to a god that behaves in such a way is evidence of a sick and demented individual. If you worship such a god, you need to turn yourself in for psychiatric evaluation right now. There is something seriously wrong with you, and innocent people could come to harm. I do not consider this an acceptable or harmless belief. I consider it a sign of deeper, more disturbing issues. Get help. Maybe this sounds like an unusual view to take, but I think that it would help to understand my point of view: I already consider belief in an afterlife an ideation of a deep, psychological rejection of mortality, and I see theism as a sign of a dysfunctional psychological dependency upon authoritative figures. I hold religiosity in extremely harsh criticism, and I don't consider it a natural or healthy condition. Although being religious doesn't necessarily mean that one is mentally disturbed, I don't consider it in the least beneficial.

If I sound unkind, consider the possibility that I'm a little sick of the arrogance of religious people. Those who pointedly abstain from religion are more psychologically healthy, less prone to irrational violence, more educable, less prone to divorce, more honest, more giving, and braver in combat than those who are religious. What do you Christians keep saying about atheists, though? Unsurprisingly, you speak in exact contradiction of the truth. The point is this: in spite of being the most dissed and loathed group in this country, we have shown ourselves to be highly exemplary citizens, which is a radical departure from most popularly disliked minorities. I argue that this doesn't show a benefit in being an atheist, per se. What I think it shows is that religion is the first refuge of the sociopathic, the mentally unsound, the cowardly, the selfish, the slothful, and the vain. I consider religion a magnet for some of the most immoral and repulsive people in society, and I consider belief in Hell an extremely disturbing ideation of dangerous antisocial impulses.


Do you have the relevant statistics for your claims on the alleged superior psychological health, lack of violence, educability, stability of long term relationships, honesty, charity and courage in combat of those abstaining from religion? A number of your other points are deserving of respect, but I expect generalisations to be backed up. Generalisations, particularly in the forms of demonisation, scapegaoating, and slander have been responsible for much misery over the centuries, as I suspect you may agree. And yes, Christians of a range of denonimations have been far from innocent in this respect. This does not excuse it in atheists.


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20 Apr 2007, 7:27 am

I suppose you're expecting me to show a bunch of statistics, yes? You could prove the moon is composed of green cheese with statistics. Besides, I'm lazy.



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20 Apr 2007, 10:03 am

Griff wrote:
[b]Remorselessly kow-towing and praying to a god that behaves in such a way is evidence of a sick and demented individual. If you worship such a god, you need to turn yourself in for psychiatric evaluation right now. There is something seriously wrong with you, and innocent people could come to harm. I do not consider this an acceptable or harmless belief. I consider it a sign of deeper, more disturbing issues. Get help. Maybe this sounds like an unusual view to take, but I think that it would help to understand my point of view: I already consider belief in an afterlife an ideation of a deep, psychological rejection of mortality, and I see theism as a sign of a dysfunctional psychological dependency upon authoritative figures. I hold religiosity in extremely harsh criticism, and I don't consider it a natural or healthy condition. Although being religious doesn't necessarily mean that one is mentally disturbed, I don't consider it in the least beneficial.

If I sound unkind, consider the possibility that I'm a little sick of the arrogance of religious people. Those who pointedly abstain from religion are more psychologically healthy, less prone to irrational violence, more educable, less prone to divorce, more honest, more giving, and braver in combat than those who are religious. What do you Christians keep saying about atheists, though? Unsurprisingly, you speak in exact contradiction of the truth. The point is this: in spite of being the most dissed and loathed group in this country, we have shown ourselves to be highly exemplary citizens, which is a radical departure from most popularly disliked minorities. I argue that this doesn't show a benefit in being an atheist, per se. What I think it shows is that religion is the first refuge of the sociopathic, the mentally unsound, the cowardly, the selfish, the slothful, and the vain. I consider religion a magnet for some of the most immoral and repulsive people in society, and I consider belief in Hell an extremely disturbing ideation of dangerous antisocial impulses.


Ever read any Sam Harris?



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20 Apr 2007, 3:33 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emickipedia%2Ecom%2F%3Fcat%3D22[/youtube]



Griff
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20 Apr 2007, 3:55 pm

foxman wrote:
Ever read any Sam Harris?
No. In fact, I don't think I've heard of him.



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20 Apr 2007, 3:58 pm

This from the guy that attacked me in another thread for discussing his religious dabblings. :?

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I'm a little sick of the arrogance of religious people.

Your rant was mighty arrogant. Hello, Mr. Pot.

And I agree. Back up what you have to say, or don't say anything. Or as my father would have put it, "put up or shut up." Don't just give us a nonsensical rant about how much you hate religion and how all people of faith are mentally deranged.

Because it sounds like the ravings of someone who's mentally deranged.



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20 Apr 2007, 5:30 pm

JonnyBGoode wrote:
Your rant was mighty arrogant. Hello, Mr. Pot.
Yeah. Sorry it came out like that. I like to try on different hats.

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And I agree. Back up what you have to say, or don't say anything.
Skafather took care of it. The sources cited in the video are pretty much the same ones I was going by.

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Or as my father would have put it, "put up or shut up."
No. Other statistics could be presented that show the opposite effect. To actually call one an "atheist" requires some intellectual curiosity about religion, but it can be demonstrated that a large proportion of the prison population is functionally nonreligious in spite of not having actively disavowed religious beliefs. To actually cite strong religious beliefs requires one to have had some kind of rearing, even if it wasn't excellent, so I think that avowed, praying Christians are likely to make up a smaller proportion of the prison population than of society as a whole. This is just speculation, but I wouldn't be in the least surprised. The statistics are just completely thrown out of relevance by the fact that Christianity is much more highly publicized than atheism, so even statistics showing them to be overrepresented could be explained by the fact that one needs less interest in the subject of religion to call oneself a Christian (albeit a very poor one) than one needs to explore the possibility of becoming an atheist. I really don't like arguing with statistics because they really don't tell the whole story.

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Don't just give us a nonsensical rant about how much you hate religion and how all people of faith are mentally deranged.
Not at all. It's a very interesting point that those statistics which show atheists to be more exemplary citizens on average can also be used as a criticism of religion, especially Christianity.



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20 Apr 2007, 6:13 pm

Griff wrote:
foxman wrote:
Ever read any Sam Harris?
No. In fact, I don't think I've heard of him.


Check him out...he's wrote The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason, and I think he writes a column for Free Inquiry. As my dad wrote in the cover when he gave the book to me..."this man is a fearless thinker. consider."

His argument deals a lot with religious tolerance...religious moderism allowing religious extremism to exist. Beyond that, he address the right of individuals to maintain an irrational belief system...i.e. If i believe that a spoon is my lord an savior, people will assume that I am nuts and ignore me. If I start killing people because they don't concur with my spoon-worshipping opinion...then I am a psychotic killer, and shoud be locked away. I don't have a right to conduct my life according to that belief system.

Harris' point is that society has an irrationally high tolerance for actions motivated by religious beliefs. He is very radical, and not always tactful...but I enjoy his points.



foxman
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20 Apr 2007, 6:20 pm

also, skafather, hooray for the vid! That goes on my list of things that make me happy^.^



skafather84
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20 Apr 2007, 6:38 pm

foxman wrote:
also, skafather, hooray for the vid! That goes on my list of things that make me happy^.^



except that brando and twain are errors in the video...but whatever.



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21 Apr 2007, 12:15 am

I get the impression it was mostly to subordinate people who were just too bad ass for their own good and who the law at the time (without guns and tasers), couldn't regulate. Yeah, they can rape steal, plunder, and extort as they wish but you have to convince them that something horrid beyond words will happen to them which of course after death is completely outside their physical control, comfort zone - pretty much their fear of the unknown. I could be wrong, that could be just a handy side-effect rather than the main cause, but when I look at organized religion so much of the harsh rules and ideas seem to be geared toward subordinating a rather brash and self-centered culture who probably weren't going to do a damn thing for anyone just out of sheer altruism.



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21 Apr 2007, 9:19 am

great video skafather84! I liked it alot!

I think one of the problems with religion is when people become dogmatic and don't give enough heed to the fact that they are dealing with complex, living human beings... When people become self-righteous... When they don't give enough effort to communicate in person and simplify everything through dogma...

I am in search of the divine with a personality, with whom I can connect and who knows and embodies true love...because I have this need for personal connection and unconditional love...and I believe/hope to have found it in Jesus...

I feel that being an atheist would be rather honest in many cases if one fails to reach the true divine and is using the concept of divine for one's own purposes...consciously or unconsciously or while in denial of doing so...
However, then again, among all religious people, who doesn't do this? If there is a divine, peoples' minds probably cannot grasp it fully...it is probably impossible to encounter/understand it fully...and it is difficult to get one's own desires/agendas out of the way...
Therefore, I admit that being religious is self-contradictory in many ways...
I wish I had a solution, but when I start to pipe up I make a bigger fool out of myself...