If there was really a God, bad things wouldn't happen.

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Is killing the firstborn son of every household in a city good or bad, right or wrong?



Is throwing homosexuals off rooftops and stoning them to death good or bad, right or wrong?

I think you have to look up John chapter 8, you can use the internet if you'd like.

Whether or not we believe in a god or gods is immaterial. If you wish your god to be credited as the source of morality, present your god.

It's hard to present something infinite through something limited like words. I wish I had the words for it. Read the bible however I recommend starting with the book of John.



Free will does not require permission.

Free will indeed doesn't require permission. But free will does however require an opportunity to present itself. If you only have one thing to choose from with a free will is quitte useless.



Rather undermines your claim of free will then. An omniscient being necessarily negates free will as your path is already determined.

It doesn't negate your free will since it doesn't matter if someone knows all or not for you to put your free will to use. That your path is pre determined doesn't mean your free will is twisted to reach your end goal. Rather the end goal you reach is in your own hands entirely.



As does this. As the omniscient creator of Adam and Eve, he created them specifically to suffer. You appear to be arguing the case that "Without God, bad things wouldn't happen", at least in the context of the OP's human-centric premise.

They chose to suffer themselves, you can't blame God for people making the wrong choice. Even with God existing, there are still many bad things happening on this earth. The Bible however gives a explenation for why these things happen, and most important of all a solution.



If "He" created us, he interfered from the very outset. If your contention is that we wouldn't exist without your omniscient creator, "He" is responsible for the actions of each and every one of us. Could your god have chosen to not create us?

He interfered with very existence itself, I however was talking about interfering with one's free will. God is responsible for our existence, our actions however are completely our responsibility since we have a free will.



I have no problem accepting the fact that biochemistry is responsible for the feelings which others express as love for me. Under your model I would have to accept that such people were destined to "love" me as part of some divine plan. I'm not sure how this differs from programming.

Again free will. Everyone has the opportunity to choose to love or not love someone. Biochemistry is true though, my model does not undermine such thing. But even when my biochemistry makes me fall in love with someone, I most of the time do not act upon it. I still get the free will to choose, no matter the situation.



I much prefer to accept the story of the Garden of Eden as an allegory. It makes a great deal more sense. The "God" you describe seems to be seeking slaves, not sons.

What do you define as slaves? Slaves don't have the opportunity to use their free will to choose for or against his master. I wish I was a slave of God, then I would never have the opportunity to leave Him.

If you wish your god to be credited as the source of morality, present your god.

Free will does not require permission.

An omniscient being necessarily negates free will as your path is already determined.

As the omniscient creator of Adam and Eve, he created them specifically to suffer.

Could your god have chosen to not create us?

Can a god destroy itself?

I'm confused about the use of the term "bad" in this thread. Are we talking immorality or inconvenient? I have two different answers, depending.

Nature to me seems to be all about creation and destruction, but ultimately renewal and change.

What does everybody else think of the idea that there could be a God, or some massive intelligence that's in control of, and links everything...that just *is*? No right or wrong about it, it just exists.

I think the OP is suggesting there is no such thing as "bad" at all...

What is good or bad depends on perspective and context, and obviously any such of God's would be different than ours.

There is the rub, I believe. My alcoholism was a "bad thing" in the sense it was killing me, for example, but it ultimately turned out to be a good thing in the sense that my sufferings -- Who made those possible? -- drove me toward reliance upon God where I could do nothing "good" either for or of myself.

So, I am hearing that your belief in God (and the structure surrounding this belief) acted as a psychological support for you in dealing with your alcoholism; is this accurate?

"I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; that without Him I was lost...
"This is the how and why of it. First of all, we had to quit playing God. It didn't work. Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director. He is the Principal; we are His agents. He is the Father, and we are His children. Most good ideas are simple, and this concept was the keystone of the new and triumphant arch through which we passed to freedom."
--"A.A.", pages 13, 62

If there is to be a moral standard at all and for all, what other source could there possibly be?

Who said it did? I am free to choose between blessing and cursing without needing permission from anyone.

Nonsense. Knowing the choice I will make does not mean it was made for me or forced upon me.

Nonsense again. He created them to love and to serve Him and each other of their own free will and He did not arrange for anything less to be equally enjoyable or pleasant.

Mere and pointless speculation: Yes.

People who consider themselves to be gods certainly can, but what do you mean by "a god"?

No, here is what worked for me:

There is no universal moral standard.

Not if that free will is contingent on the actions of an omniscient being.

Knowing you will make a choice that condemns you to [whatever] yet creating you anyway means [the choice was made for you or forced upon you]...

You cannot have free will + an omniscient creator. It's logically impossible.

If [God is] aware of all of the future outcomes of [His] actions (which is required to be omniscient) then [He is] completely responsible for those outcomes.

A truly omnipotent being could create flawless beings with their own free will.

All speculation is pointless to those whose minds are closed.

I don't believe in any gods. You'll have to provide your own definition.

I think you have to look up John chapter 8, you can use the internet if you'd like.

It's hard to present something infinite through something limited like words. I wish I had the words for it. Read the bible however I recommend starting with the book of John.

Free will indeed doesn't require permission. But free will does however require an opportunity to present itself. If you only have one thing to choose from with a free will is quitte useless.

It doesn't negate your free will since it doesn't matter if someone knows all or not for you to put your free will to use. That your path is pre determined doesn't mean your free will is twisted to reach your end goal. Rather the end goal you reach is in your own hands entirely.

They chose to suffer themselves, you can't blame God for people making the wrong choice. Even with God existing, there are still many bad things happening on this earth. The Bible however gives a explenation for why these things happen, and most important of all a solution.

He interfered with very existence itself, I however was talking about interfering with one's free will. God is responsible for our existence, our actions however are completely our responsibility since we have a free will.

Again free will. Everyone has the opportunity to choose to love or not love someone. Biochemistry is true though, my model does not undermine such thing. But even when my biochemistry makes me fall in love with someone, I most of the time do not act upon it. I still get the free will to choose, no matter the situation.

What do you define as slaves? Slaves don't have the opportunity to use their free will to choose for or against his master. I wish I was a slave of God, then I would never have the opportunity to leave Him.

God can do all, but just becuase someone can do it doesn't mean he does it.

I wish I could explain the whole thing to you, but I have limited capabilities to do such thing. God gave us a free will and we used it against Him. Punishment for this is death. However he sent his only born Son to safe our lives. We deserve hell, believe me we do. Why are we even having this debate if the solution for our problem has already presented itself, we have no right to complain if God is just or unjust.

When the flood came Noah warned the people they had to get into the arc. The people thought he was crazy. they used their free will( not going in the arc). And the rain poured down, it's to late now to get into the arc the door is closed. They died, who is to blame for this? Themselves ofcourse, they should've listened. Yet they did not and got what was coming to them.

This is actually exactly the same now. God presents us an arc to be saved. This arc is Jesus Christ. Who is to blame if you choose not to go into the arc, your own stupid self. God is loving but God is also righteous. We humans sometimes mistake this righteousnes for cruelty. But it's not.

I know my answers sound kind of simple in some way, and maybe not answering the questions on your mind.

I was in AA for two months about six years ago now. It didn't work for me at all...too chatty for me...the networking required to attract a mentor was beyond me.

It was shortly thereafter that my psychiatrist at the time tried Seroquel for me and as I said it had a great effect.

...then why are we shown how to love one another?

Says who?

I do not understand what you are saying. God instructs us to choose blessing or cursing, and my choice was/is not dependent upon any action on His part.

Please explain how, and I am honestly trying to understand what you are saying.

I changed some words there only because I think they clearly represent what you are trying to say...and His knowing the choice I will/would/did make does not mean He made that choice for me.

Omnipotence would not be needed for doing that, but I believe I do understand what you are saying...and God did not create us to be equal with Himself. Rather, He simply made it possible for us to choose between His blessing or His cursing.

I had answered your question, and your cheap shot reveals part of your character, not mine.

I was only asking what you might have meant by "a god" since that is what we are talking about unless you actually are talking about God as you might believe does not even exist...and if so, why would you be bothering to do that?!

If your creator is omniscient, your future actions were...determined, prior to creation.