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Why do Americans love guns so much?

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Jacoby
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11 Mar 2017, 10:30 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
I've been talking to a few gun lovers on the internet. Some of them seem to expect that all of their assailants will be armed only with knives even though guns are readily available and some of them seem to expect their assailants will politely stand still without firing their guns while the gun lover shoots them one at a time.

It's almost as though they think guns can block bullets from other guns. A gun is an effective offensive weapon but a very poor defensive weapon.


you are strawmanning like crazy

Do you lock your door at night? What would you do if somebody had a gun on you? Anything? Not everybody is resigned to being a victim. It's a great defensive weapon because it's a deterrent, not hard to understand.



RetroGamer87
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11 Mar 2017, 10:31 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I can say with certainty that most people don't take shooting somebody lightly.

But if somebody threatens to shoot you with a gun, or take your car or something, it's natural to want to defend yourself.
An understandable desire but it may not always work effectively.


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RetroGamer87
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11 Mar 2017, 10:33 am

Jacoby wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
I've been talking to a few gun lovers on the internet. Some of them seem to expect that all of their assailants will be armed only with knives even though guns are readily available and some of them seem to expect their assailants will politely stand still without firing their guns while the gun lover shoots them one at a time.

It's almost as though they think guns can block bullets from other guns. A gun is an effective offensive weapon but a very poor defensive weapon.


you are strawmanning like crazy

Do you lock your door at night? What would you do if somebody had a gun on you? Anything? Not everybody is resigned to being a victim. It's a great defensive weapon because it's a deterrent, not hard to understand.


It's not strawmanning if they actually said it.

What would I do if someone had a gun on me? I would certainly not reach into my holster and draw a gun because I would be on the ground dead before I had a chance to use it.

I would be willing to do anything to defend myself but only if it was effective.


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RetroGamer87
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11 Mar 2017, 10:38 am

Jacoby wrote:
Foreigners really are clueless about guns, I am convinced they get all their information from movies. The 2nd Amendment is about protection, be against an intruder in our home or a tyrannical government. An armed society is a polite one, it's not about beating a mugger in a gunfight because that mugger probably would never have attempted it if they thought they might get shot in the face because of it. People protect themselves with guns every day in this country, they might not do emotionally manipulative stories on it every day like the anti-gun media but it happens so you can look that up if you want.

Also saying 'well you can overthrow a gun with small arms' is not really a well thought out position since there are revolutions that happen with far less and there are great many military and police that would side with the 2nd amendment rather than the tyranny of the other side. The threat of force again works as a deterrent here, you're not going to enslave people who can violently resist.

Just talk to Dox about this, he'll set you straight and then some on the topic.
I'm glad someone disagrees with me. For the first few posts I felt like I was in an echo chamber.

I would be very interested in hearing about these revolutions that happen with far less than small arms.


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kraftiekortie
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11 Mar 2017, 10:41 am

No one wants to be a victim.

Sometimes, people who use guns have it backfire against them. Especially if they are not trained properly in the use of guns.

But, if one wants to protect one's family from an assailant, one must have some recourse. Otherwise, they feel powerless. They feel like they are not adequately protecting their families.

I don't find what I say to be propaganda at all.

It's a bad feeling to feel you are inadequate.

In most parts of the US, this sort of thing is at least rather rare, fortunately.



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11 Mar 2017, 10:42 am

I'm definitely not an "echo" to anybody. I am my own man.



kraftiekortie
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11 Mar 2017, 10:45 am

I don't feel most Americans "love" guns.

Many do feel it necessary to have them as a last recourse, though.



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11 Mar 2017, 10:50 am

Civil, nonviolent disobedience has worked QUITE well at times. It made the careers of Gandhi and Martin Luther King.



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11 Mar 2017, 10:55 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I agree with the right to protect your property from burglars.

I do hope the threat of being shot and killed deters some of them.
I agree with that right too and I couldn't care less about the life of a home invader but if you get into a gun fight with an armed invader it's like rolling a dice, you might win, he might win. You definitely have better odds inside your home. Worse odds on the street since on street the attacker draws first.

So which gives you better odds, taking your chances in a gun fun against an attacker who is also armed or having less attackers due to gun control laws? Of course I realise gun control laws will not eliminate all gun armed criminals but it can greatly reduce their numbers.

If it was a choice between having a 50% chance of winning a gun fight or being only one quarter as likely to get into a battle with someone with a gun, I'd choose the latter.

Of course this is in cases when my life is at stake, not my money. If I had a 50% chance of being winning a gun fight or a 100% chance of survival if I handed over my wallet, I'd hand over my wallet.

The gun lovers on Facebook say only a liberal cuck would hand over their wallet but if I had a 50% chance of surviving a gun fight or a 100% chance of survival if I handed over my wallet and got called a liberal cuck but a conservative on the internet, I'd hand over my wallet and get called a liberal cuck by a conservative on the internet.


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RetroGamer87
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11 Mar 2017, 10:57 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't feel most Americans "love" guns.

Many do feel it necessary to have them as a last recourse, though.
Perhaps it's just that way on Facebook. They don't merely own guns, they love guns and accuse anyone who doesn't own one of not protecting their families.


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RetroGamer87
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11 Mar 2017, 10:58 am

I know it's been said many a time that if we outlaw guns then only outlaws will own guns but seriously, in Australia the number of guns in civilian hands is so small that very few criminals are able to procure one.


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Jacoby
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11 Mar 2017, 10:59 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Foreigners really are clueless about guns, I am convinced they get all their information from movies. The 2nd Amendment is about protection, be against an intruder in our home or a tyrannical government. An armed society is a polite one, it's not about beating a mugger in a gunfight because that mugger probably would never have attempted it if they thought they might get shot in the face because of it. People protect themselves with guns every day in this country, they might not do emotionally manipulative stories on it every day like the anti-gun media but it happens so you can look that up if you want.

Also saying 'well you can overthrow a gun with small arms' is not really a well thought out position since there are revolutions that happen with far less and there are great many military and police that would side with the 2nd amendment rather than the tyranny of the other side. The threat of force again works as a deterrent here, you're not going to enslave people who can violently resist.

Just talk to Dox about this, he'll set you straight and then some on the topic.
I'm glad someone disagrees with me. For the first few posts I felt like I was in an echo chamber.

I would be very interested in hearing about these revolutions that happen with far less than small arms.


All those Soros sponsored Color Revolutions, Arab Spring before it went bad, most of the fall of communism. A revolution isn't like a conventional war, a tyrannical government can't just kill everyone rebelling and maintain its legitimacy with the people. If 1% of Americans took up arms against said tyrannical government then they would win.

The point of owning guns isn't to defend yourself in gunfights, its to prevent that fight from ever happening and if somebody has gun on you threatening your life then you really don't have a choice but to defend yourself with deadly force.



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11 Mar 2017, 11:01 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I can say with certainty that most people don't take shooting somebody lightly.

But if somebody threatens to shoot you or your family with a gun, or take your car or something, it's natural to want to defend yourself.


Thing is, it's VERY unlikely that someone will threaten to shoot you or your family with a gun...if you stop giving everyone guns!

I see it as indoctrination. It's almost like discussing with people in a religious cult. They have no sensible reason for people being allowed to have guns. Just that it's their 'right', or that they have to because other people have them, which is obviously a never-ending cycle.



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11 Mar 2017, 11:05 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Civil, nonviolent disobedience has worked QUITE well at times. It made the careers of Gandhi and Martin Luther King.
What choice did they have? I'm not sure if armed revolution would have worked for MLK or Gandhi. I've never heard of armed revolution succeeding against a 20th century first world country such as the US or the UK.

It worked nicely against first world countries in the 18th century when it was musket vs musket rather than rifle vs tank. The confederates tried it in the 19th century. They lost.

I was just talking to a guy who said he needs his gun to defend against the United States government and it's "massive military right arm". It truly baffles me that he thinks his rifle will be effect against weapons such as the M1 Abrams tank or the Apache helicopter.


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Last edited by RetroGamer87 on 11 Mar 2017, 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jacoby
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11 Mar 2017, 11:08 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
I know it's been said many a time that if we outlaw guns then only outlaws will own guns but seriously, in Australia the number of guns in civilian hands is so small that very few criminals are able to procure one.


Australia has a small mostly homogeneous population isolated on a giant island in the South Pacific, it's not comparable to the US in this regard. Saying it reduces gun crime is a misnomer since it doesn't actually reduce crime overall and an increase in crime usually happens after these gun bans. Two of the most violent cities in the US were Chicago and DC(DC is rapidly being gentrified however) which banned handguns, it just doesn't work. Criminals in the US don't use legal guns, they don't deal legal drugs, they don't pimp legal prostitutes, they're criminals and don't pay heed to the law already so disarming law abiding citizens only puts them at these people's mercy.



Jacoby
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11 Mar 2017, 11:14 am

ArielsSong wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I can say with certainty that most people don't take shooting somebody lightly.

But if somebody threatens to shoot you or your family with a gun, or take your car or something, it's natural to want to defend yourself.


Thing is, it's VERY unlikely that someone will threaten to shoot you or your family with a gun...if you stop giving everyone guns!

I see it as indoctrination. It's almost like discussing with people in a religious cult. They have no sensible reason for people being allowed to have guns. Just that it's their 'right', or that they have to because other people have them, which is obviously a never-ending cycle.


You fear an inanimate object but not the person holding it, it's not law abiding citizens that are the problem but the criminals. It's not a religious cult because I'm educated on it, we're not the ones that are ignorant or fearful about guns which you primarily see in movies or TV.

I grew up hunting with my dad, I held a gun in hands very young and its important to teach your child the proper way of handling a gun because the alternative is something potentially tragic. Hunting is a part of the way of life for a lot of people in this country by the way, it's never going to be taken away. We have guns because we will not allow them to be taken.