What if Abrahamic religions are a deception?

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Windigo
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29 Mar 2017, 12:33 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Yes, and I suspect those methods of deceit, including self-delusion or self-deceit where many people are actually *willingly* deceived, are also many.


What would willing deception be then, who would want to go to hell?

leejosepho wrote:
Personally, I begin on the simple premise of the existence of a sovereign Creator, then try to comprehend exactly what the Creator is reported to have said (such as a simple "I am!" when asked "Who shall I say has sent me?")...and yes, I do realize I am still dependent upon human reports of what the perceived Creator has allegedly said.


But the Bible says it is the direct Word of God, so that's not a human report then.

leejosepho wrote:
I used to wonder why or how the Creator either could or would expect anyone to seriously consider reports from imperfect humans, but today I have learned the character of the pizza delivery person does not automatically affect the quality of the food.


What convinced you?

My problems lie more with the fact that these books portray the creator Himself as imperfect, by stating He is jealous, angry etc. I can't believe that.


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Windigo
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29 Mar 2017, 12:35 pm

Yo El wrote:
You also can't call God cruel because He isn't indifferent towards suffering and he also doesn't find pleasure in it.


The Bible says God is a jealous God, that He gets angry etc. How is that perfect?


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leejosepho
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29 Mar 2017, 12:45 pm

Windigo wrote:
What would willing deception be then, who would want to go to hell?

One question at a time, please! Some people believe they can avoid hell by believing God will not ultimately destroy all doers of evil if the number might be great enough...and thus it is an act of their will to be deceived into believing that.

Windigo wrote:
...the Bible says it is the direct Word of God, so that's not a human report then.

I am only aware of what people say the Bible allegedly says even though it cannot speak.

Windigo wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
I used to wonder why or how the Creator either could or would expect anyone to seriously consider reports from imperfect humans, but today I have learned the character of the pizza delivery person does not automatically affect the quality of the food.

What convinced you?

What convinced me of what?

Windigo wrote:
My problems lie more with the fact that these books portray the creator Himself as imperfect, by stating He is jealous, angry etc. I can't believe that.

Where did you get the idea of jealousy and/or anger being evidence of imperfection?


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Windigo
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29 Mar 2017, 1:11 pm

leejosepho wrote:
One question at a time, please! Some people believe they can avoid hell by believing God will not ultimately destroy all doers of evil if the number might be great enough...and thus it is an act of their will to be deceived into believing that.


What makes an ''evildoer''?

According to the Bible, not believing in God is enough for that. Isn't that a little strange?

leejosepho wrote:
What convinced me of what?


That the Bible is God's word? At least that's what I understood from your post.

Windigo wrote:
Where did you get the idea of jealousy and/or anger being evidence of imperfection?


Because Jesus had none of these characteristics, and we're supposed to follow him if we follow the Bible. So why would God be different?


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leejosepho
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29 Mar 2017, 1:51 pm

@Windigo: I do not do rhetorical stuff, so there is no such thing as "According to the Bible..." or something such as "Isn't that a little strange?" that will get much of a response from me in this kind of discussion.

Scripture is or contains records written by men, and that includes the report of the stone/stones at Sinai being "written by the finger of God" or however that is worded...and thus do we have many things reported as "the Word of God"...and my comment about the pizza delivery person was intended to show the fact that I might check the messenger's credentials a bit if the message being conveyed might sound a bit fishy, but a wart on his or her knows does not mean there is something wrong with the pizza.

Windigo wrote:
Jesus had none of [jealousy or anger]...

Then why did he clear the temple?


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Yo El
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30 Mar 2017, 8:52 am

Windigo wrote:
Yo El wrote:
You also can't call God cruel because He isn't indifferent towards suffering and he also doesn't find pleasure in it.


The Bible says God is a jealous God, that He gets angry etc. How is that perfect?
Let me ask you a question. If someone were to flirt with your wife what would be more appropiate, getting jealous or not getting jealous? If you get jealous doesn't it mean you generally speaking care more about your wife than when you're not jealous? Also shouldn't you you be the only one who has the right to flirt with your wife?



leejosepho
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30 Mar 2017, 9:27 am

Yes, jealousy and anger are mere emotions, not defects of character, and then many people confuse jealousy with selfishness or even envy. There is a difference, however: I am naturally and even rightly jealous over the affection of my wife, but it is not okay for me to selfishly lock her away from public view or to envy the affection another man might be receiving from his own wife.

As to anger:

Quote:
Jesus—at one point when he was in the synagogue and they were bent out of shape because he was healing someone on the Sabbath—it says he looked around upon them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart.
Be angry and do not sin.

When he cleared the temple of money changers, he was rightly jealous over his Father's house having been made into a den of thieves.


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Windigo
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30 Mar 2017, 11:03 am

leejosepho wrote:
Yes, jealousy and anger are mere emotions, not defects of character.


We're talking about an all knowing, all understanding, eternal being here called God.

I would say God is beyond such things as emotions, as nothing causes a reaction in Him because He already knows everything before it happens.

Which is exactly why books like the bible make zero sense to me.


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Yo El
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30 Mar 2017, 11:37 am

Windigo wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Yes, jealousy and anger are mere emotions, not defects of character.


We're talking about an all knowing, all understanding, eternal being here called God.

I would say God is beyond such things as emotions, as nothing causes a reaction in Him because He already knows everything before it happens.

Which is exactly why books like the bible make zero sense to me.
And exactly how can someone with a limited understanding such as you possibly know how an all knowing and eternal being should react to things?

Edit: I will propably resign from this discussion because I'm sensing that you are in a very uncomfortable position having to deal with two people alone.



Last edited by Yo El on 30 Mar 2017, 11:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

leejosepho
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30 Mar 2017, 11:44 am

Windigo wrote:
I would say God is beyond such things as emotions...

As best I can tell, that would be a god of your own imagination rather than our Creator, but I do understand your logic:

Windigo wrote:
...because He already knows everything before it happens.

Question: How or why would that either negate or eliminate emotion?

hint: I doubt our Maker is an Aspie! ;)


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Windigo
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30 Mar 2017, 12:27 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Windigo wrote:
I would say God is beyond such things as emotions...

As best I can tell, that would be a god of your own imagination rather than our Creator, but I do understand your logic:

Windigo wrote:
...because He already knows everything before it happens.

Question: How or why would that either negate or eliminate emotion?

hint: I doubt our Maker is an Aspie! ;)


I somewhat expected you to say that :D

And yes, maybe this is ''a God of my imagination''; because it's definitely not the God of the Bible. We agree there.

But what proves the God of the Bible is not just the figment of more people's imagination? :wink:


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leejosepho
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30 Mar 2017, 3:39 pm

Windigo wrote:
...yes, maybe this is ''a God of my imagination''; because it's definitely not the God of the Bible. We agree there.

Oops, no, you went too far there since I would never say "it's definitely not the God of the Bible." No human being could ever prove such a thing. Instead, I would say something more along the line of "God as I suspect you misunderstand Him."

Windigo wrote:
But what proves the God of the Bible is not just the figment of more people's imagination? :wink:

Some people definitely believe that and have their arguments, but permanent recovery from chronic alcoholism proves "the God of the Bible" (although not necessarily the god of religion) to me as well as to many others like myself.


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