Book Review & Promotion: The Gentle Traditionalist

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Kraichgauer
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21 Jan 2018, 11:53 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
TBH I don't know. The bible seems really ambiguous on this, aside from some reference in Hebrews 4:12 suggesting that soul and spirit are things that can be separated. That still raises the question that since this gospel is often attributed to Paul it might stand to reason that this is another case of Hellenistic Platonism/Neoplatonism pervading the New Testament. If one does take Paul and John as valid reformers of Judaic tradition then we're headed back to something similar to a Christian Cabbalistic perspective which takes us right back to Tomberg and Meditations on the Tarot.

I think I missed something in regards to the definition of "spirit" because what you said just now reminded of Mary's word in her Magnificat where she speaks of her soul magnifying the Lord, and her spirit rejoicing in God her Saviour. Saint Louis de Montfort, one of the greatest Marian devotees in Catholic history said that Mary was so humble that her spirit was in fact the Holy Spirit Himself, as she renounced any spirit of her own in humility, I'm not sure how that squares with your definition of the term "spirit" if you have completely different understanding of that term. Although I myself don't have a good understanding of the Catholic definition of the term spirit, and it may be that this term is used loosely and can mean a variety of things.

But going back to my original question, the difference between the Catholic view of the relationship between body and soul, and the Protestant view is actually much more basic than what you're addressing here. The Protestant view, and I'm speaking generally here, based both on what I've heard from Catholic apologists, and my own personal encounters with Protestants, is the basic body as a vehicle for the soul type of view, the soul is basically just all things immaterial that posses the body and operates it. By contrast, the Traditional Catholic understanding of the relationship between the body and the soul, is basically the Aristotelian view, namely, that the soul is to the body, what sight is to the eyes. The soul is not something the posses the body, but the principle whole of the body, the soul can exist without the body, but this state is what we call death, and is, as we know from Genesis, God's punishment for sin. This difference between Catholics and Protestants is one of the key reasons why Catholics and Protestants disagree and various issues like the Eucharist, devotion to Mary and the Saints and so on, it comes primarily from St. Paul's use of the term "flesh" ("sarx" in Greek) and other phrases in the New Testament, that Protestants have interpreted in this dualistic fashion. Also, Traditional Catholics consider the human person to be made up of three aspect, one physical, two immaterial, these three aspects are, the intellect, the will, and the body with its passions. (Some think that Sigmund Freud's superego, ego, and id are based off of these.)


I am a Protestant, and I can tell you, I was raised with the view that while we are spiritual beings, it's also undeniable that we are also physical. On the Resurrection day, we will be physical as we are now, but our physical forms will be perfect and glorified in the same way that Christ's physical body was glorified after his ressurection.
As I'm a Lutheran, my beliefs concerning the Eucharist has more in common with Catholicism's, in that we believe in the Real Presence of Christ's body and blood. We don't believe the substance of the bread and wine changes into the body and blood, but that the body and blood are present with the bread and wine.
It is very true that we do not venerate Mary.
Not just Catholicism, but all Christian theology had influenced Freud's concepts of Ego, Superego, and Id.


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Greatshield17
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25 Jan 2018, 1:31 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I don't think Freud's superego works well for will because, to the best of my memory, his superego is a storehouse of rules, penalties, and hard-learned lessons and it's the voice that thrashes you if you make a mistake. The will is something closer to pure or unfiltered motive.

I, and other scholars were referring to the intellect as being Freud's superego, and the will as being the ego.

Albeit, the Traditional Catholic concept of the intellect is more complex than Freud's concept the superego as a storage facility of memorized rules and codes. The Catholic concept of the intellect, considers active like the imagination and such as important components of the intellect, granted I just the basics of this understanding and still haven't dived in too deep.

You touched several other points that I'd love to discuss, but unfortunately I have a lot college work to do so we're going to have leave things here. Hopefully we pick this up again in the future this up and go further.


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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."

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Greatshield17
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25 Jan 2018, 1:51 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I am a Protestant, and I can tell you, I was raised with the view that while we are spiritual beings, it's also undeniable that we are also physical. On the Resurrection day, we will be physical as we are now, but our physical forms will be perfect and glorified in the same way that Christ's physical body was glorified after his ressurection.
As I'm a Lutheran, my beliefs concerning the Eucharist has more in common with Catholicism's, in that we believe in the Real Presence of Christ's body and blood. We don't believe the substance of the bread and wine changes into the body and blood, but that the body and blood are present with the bread and wine.
It is very true that we do not venerate Mary.
Not just Catholicism, but all Christian theology had influenced Freud's concepts of Ego, Superego, and Id.

I realize that "Protestant" can be a broad term and Protestants can have diverse opinions on this, and that most Protestants probably do believe in the physical resurrection of the dead.

I'm also aware that Lutherans themselves also have their own unique views regarding many issues that differ from mainstream (I'm using this term very loosely) Protestants including the Eucharist and the mass. (Albeit, I only the bare-bone basics of Lutheranism, and most of my experience with Lutherans has been with the high-church type.)


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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."

WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.


Kraichgauer
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25 Jan 2018, 8:14 pm

Greatshield17 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I am a Protestant, and I can tell you, I was raised with the view that while we are spiritual beings, it's also undeniable that we are also physical. On the Resurrection day, we will be physical as we are now, but our physical forms will be perfect and glorified in the same way that Christ's physical body was glorified after his ressurection.
As I'm a Lutheran, my beliefs concerning the Eucharist has more in common with Catholicism's, in that we believe in the Real Presence of Christ's body and blood. We don't believe the substance of the bread and wine changes into the body and blood, but that the body and blood are present with the bread and wine.
It is very true that we do not venerate Mary.
Not just Catholicism, but all Christian theology had influenced Freud's concepts of Ego, Superego, and Id.

I realize that "Protestant" can be a broad term and Protestants can have diverse opinions on this, and that most Protestants probably do believe in the physical resurrection of the dead.

I'm also aware that Lutherans themselves also have their own unique views regarding many issues that differ from mainstream (I'm using this term very loosely) Protestants including the Eucharist and the mass. (Albeit, I only the bare-bone basics of Lutheranism, and most of my experience with Lutherans has been with the high-church type.)


Lutherans only come in the high church type, as far as I know. If anything, Catholicism is actually closer to Lutheranism than to even the Anglican communion.


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Greatshield17
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26 Jan 2018, 1:16 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I am a Protestant, and I can tell you, I was raised with the view that while we are spiritual beings, it's also undeniable that we are also physical. On the Resurrection day, we will be physical as we are now, but our physical forms will be perfect and glorified in the same way that Christ's physical body was glorified after his ressurection.
As I'm a Lutheran, my beliefs concerning the Eucharist has more in common with Catholicism's, in that we believe in the Real Presence of Christ's body and blood. We don't believe the substance of the bread and wine changes into the body and blood, but that the body and blood are present with the bread and wine.
It is very true that we do not venerate Mary.
Not just Catholicism, but all Christian theology had influenced Freud's concepts of Ego, Superego, and Id.

I realize that "Protestant" can be a broad term and Protestants can have diverse opinions on this, and that most Protestants probably do believe in the physical resurrection of the dead.

I'm also aware that Lutherans themselves also have their own unique views regarding many issues that differ from mainstream (I'm using this term very loosely) Protestants including the Eucharist and the mass. (Albeit, I only the bare-bone basics of Lutheranism, and most of my experience with Lutherans has been with the high-church type.)


Lutherans only come in the high church type, as far as I know. If anything, Catholicism is actually closer to Lutheranism than to even the Anglican communion.

I meant Traditional or conservative type Lutherans.



Kraichgauer
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26 Jan 2018, 2:06 am

Greatshield17 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Greatshield17 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I am a Protestant, and I can tell you, I was raised with the view that while we are spiritual beings, it's also undeniable that we are also physical. On the Resurrection day, we will be physical as we are now, but our physical forms will be perfect and glorified in the same way that Christ's physical body was glorified after his ressurection.
As I'm a Lutheran, my beliefs concerning the Eucharist has more in common with Catholicism's, in that we believe in the Real Presence of Christ's body and blood. We don't believe the substance of the bread and wine changes into the body and blood, but that the body and blood are present with the bread and wine.
It is very true that we do not venerate Mary.
Not just Catholicism, but all Christian theology had influenced Freud's concepts of Ego, Superego, and Id.

I realize that "Protestant" can be a broad term and Protestants can have diverse opinions on this, and that most Protestants probably do believe in the physical resurrection of the dead.

I'm also aware that Lutherans themselves also have their own unique views regarding many issues that differ from mainstream (I'm using this term very loosely) Protestants including the Eucharist and the mass. (Albeit, I only the bare-bone basics of Lutheranism, and most of my experience with Lutherans has been with the high-church type.)


Lutherans only come in the high church type, as far as I know. If anything, Catholicism is actually closer to Lutheranism than to even the Anglican communion.

I meant Traditional or conservative type Lutherans.


I myself belong to the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, which can fairly be called more conservative (I don't agree about everything with my church body, especially in regard to gay rights and evolution), but as far as I can tell, our worship and general beliefs are virtually identical to the liberal Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. The tiny (American type) evangelical and Pentecostal elements seem to be more into that happy clappy sort of worship.


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