Incel terrorism
The_Face_of_Boo
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26 Apr 2018, 7:17 am
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/al ... 21711.html
The word 'Nerds' is what caught me, were Rodger and Minassian "nerds"? What did both study, something in science or IT?
I read it that the author believes that people make a mistake by dismissing them as nerds. I agree.
ETA: nerds or not seems irrelevant
Indeed it is irrelevant, but that does may indicate there's a new stereotype.
Minassian seems was a developer, but I don't think Rodger was nerd or majored in something nerdy, he didn't even look like one.
Were all also living with parents hence the 'basement-dwelling' reference? I recall Sodini had his own big house.
ASPartOfMe
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26 Apr 2018, 11:52 am
I'd say when they have a manifesto like Isla Vista that's grounds to call it terrorism. If you want their ideology, it's actually in the manifesto.
To most, terrorism is only radical Islam or alt-right.
To people who can't accurately define terrorism, perhaps.
I would define the Toronto incident as terrorism because it was done for a cause. It does not matter to me how demented or ridiculous I think the cause is as long as it is for a cause. The Elliot Roger attack was personal revenge. While he published a manifesto, it was all about him. This was another misogynistic terrorist attack.
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techstepgenr8tion
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26 Apr 2018, 3:43 pm
When I read your OP it got me thinking about several things.
I don't want to sound sympathetic to people harming others or kicking-off when they've had too much, for pragmatic reasons, even with moral judgment withheld, such can't be offered.
What I can say is in my own case I've had a relatively high IQ, been very observant of what my life is, and my short-term memory and executive functioning deficits have had me throughout my youth looking like the sort of guy that most people would calculate on a subconscious level blew his brain out with drugs or likes to huff paint and steal credit cards. I remember so many times when my friends had friends who brought an attractive female acquaintence with them and just being civil I tried to strike up conversation they were quite rude or if it was something intelligent I was saying their moral indignation at 'this slug is trying to sound intelligent' got quite a strident 'you'r full of sh**!' type of emotional response with or without the words as such. I had the simultaneous joy of both getting treated like a rapy creep just by being in the same public places, without even looking or making any sorts of revealing gestures (let alone not having any sexual interest to reveal) and I also - at work - had a new girl trying to flirt with me every month and within a week pretty much hating me either because I didn't perform as expected or because they realized that they'd been duped by a 'ret*d' guy.
When enough people are put in exquisite misery by society it really boils down to a numbers game. If it's millions you might figure that one in 10,000 will kick off like some of the guys mentioned. The real miracle is that the number isn't higher. When a person's told in so many ways that they're worthless, better off dead, or better yet - have something of a perverse honor obligation to take their own lives for being whatever it is they are - it has side effects. The best way I can sum all of this up in a sentence - with one person dealing with their agency in the face of tragedy and suffering is their moral battle, however looking much larger numbers like aggregate groups - pressures become destiny. It's much like if you put a big red button in the middle of central park that would cause the extinction of humanity - any one given person, the overwhelming majority, wouldn't want to be anywhere near that button but it's very being there with so much traffic would make it's getting pressed a certainty.
I've also had the dips through personal hell where I've had the experience of seeing just how frayed a person can get and how much a person and their self-control, moral math, etc. can be changed by different kinds of internal agony. It genuinely scared me to see just how thin my self control could get shaved (not toward harming other people thankfully but in some other ways) and I try to imagine what a society is setting itself up for if millions of men and women are in situations where society has broken so many of it's basic promises to them that they feel like they have nothing to lose and mountains of resentment they could resolve by taking the black pill.
The really sad and disgusting thing about all of that - there's probably nothing we can do about it. Human beings are generally on this earth to, if not outright kill, take everything away from their competition. It's a constant cauldron of people trying to step on each other's heads to get to the top and where the top is fixed people are keeping their own little ledgers and dossiers of the mistakes of anyone around them to use at opportune times. Creating 'losers', both male and female, is a part of how this system grades all of us on a bell curve and I can't imagine any amount of technology, or even increase in IQ collectively, ever fixing the pernicious things that happen as a sheer side effect of us socializing and competing in large numbers.
Sorry for the long and dark journey but that's about where this sort of topic takes me. I just hope like heck that do find some sort of 'soma' like Brave New World or something like that to medicate the people we're trampling on because if we don't we'll have more than enough technology to assure that our extinction won't be anything like an if but a certain yet unknown when.
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jrjones9933
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26 Apr 2018, 6:16 pm
The development of personal grievances into an ideology concerns me greatly. They believe that they have a monopoly on suffering, and want simple solutions provided by other people, without them having to let go of their reeking negativity. I've tried talking to similar people here and got nowhere. I've watched other (nicer) people try, too, and watched them get nowhere. As soon as I read the mammoth article, I started connecting the dots. First step, inoculate anyone not already infected. Second step, highlight the widely unforeseen seriousness of the problem in society and on this website. *looks sideways at L&D*
I tried sympathy a few times, and I have to agree with Uncle Bill: It is a bottomless pit. Maybe meme war?
Nerds still rule the world. On further consideration, I think the Independent meant to say "dorks." Big difference.
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26 Apr 2018, 6:29 pm
...
Many in the media and in politics are unwilling to label attacks driven by misogynistic ideology as terrorism — often declaring them to be simply the result of “mental illness,” as many did in the case of Elliot Rodger’s murders (ignoring his hundred page manifesto), and as the authorities are already doing in the Toronto attacks.
But misogyny is not mental illness; it’s hate. And what BlkPillPres is talking about here is essentially the dictionary definition of terrorism — “[t]he unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.” The tactics he suggests are an explicit attempt to subject “normies” to “constant fear” — that is, terror — in all areas of their lives, in order to advance BlkPillPres’ goal of “black pilling” the world and intimidating those who criticize incels into silence.
Following his link back to the older thread, one quickly discovers that it is even more disturbing. In it, BlkPillPres sets out what he sees as the virtues of various terroristic strategies, from acid attacks to mass rape to vehicle attacks like the one we saw yesterday.
The article has lots of direct quotes with links to the sources.
I wonder how we can deal with this threat. With racists, shunning seems pretty effective, but these folks thrive on feeling excluded. We even have some folks in this forum who constantly create problems by spewing their self-abnegation and hatred of women. Maybe this will wake people up to the actual threats they may indeed pose.
I think the more men who speak out against misogyny and violence against women, the better, however I also think young men who are at risk for being assimilated by such groups need the guidance and mentorship of men with healthy perspectives on life.
26 Apr 2018, 6:35 pm
...
Many in the media and in politics are unwilling to label attacks driven by misogynistic ideology as terrorism — often declaring them to be simply the result of “mental illness,” as many did in the case of Elliot Rodger’s murders (ignoring his hundred page manifesto), and as the authorities are already doing in the Toronto attacks.
But misogyny is not mental illness; it’s hate. And what BlkPillPres is talking about here is essentially the dictionary definition of terrorism — “[t]he unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.” The tactics he suggests are an explicit attempt to subject “normies” to “constant fear” — that is, terror — in all areas of their lives, in order to advance BlkPillPres’ goal of “black pilling” the world and intimidating those who criticize incels into silence.
Following his link back to the older thread, one quickly discovers that it is even more disturbing. In it, BlkPillPres sets out what he sees as the virtues of various terroristic strategies, from acid attacks to mass rape to vehicle attacks like the one we saw yesterday.
The article has lots of direct quotes with links to the sources.
I wonder how we can deal with this threat. With racists, shunning seems pretty effective, but these folks thrive on feeling excluded. We even have some folks in this forum who constantly create problems by spewing their self-abnegation and hatred of women. Maybe this will wake people up to the actual threats they may indeed pose.
I think the more men who speak out against misogyny and violence against women, the better, however I also think young men who are at risk for being assimilated by such groups need the guidance and mentorship of men with healthy perspectives on life.
It has to be men who solve this problem and help each other, because the kind of guys who get drawn into this ideology are the kind of guys who won't listen to the perspectives and input of women because they don't see us as human beings and don't think we can understand their "suffering" the way other men can because they think we are inhuman robots or biological machines without the capacity for reason or love or empathy. They wouldn't accept any help or advice from women, so other men are going to have to be the ones to help them if anyone can.
jrjones9933
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26 Apr 2018, 6:42 pm
I find the connection between mass shootings and domestic abuse very interesting in the context of this discussion. The incels and abusers share a lot of personality traits. Perhaps they can't hide the signs as well as similar people who do manage to attract mates. Many abusers have a really convincing Nice Guy (TM) act; perhaps the black pill incels act less credibly.
A woman would need a death wish to get involved with someone who associates with the commenters shown in the article.
[Aside: they have really shallow goals and perceptions of others, and demean women based on their appearance. Uggos need not apply.]
Social shunning seems pretty effective against various kinds of bigots, but the incels developed their twisted philosophy in that setting, so I don't expect it to work against this ideology. Maybe we can at least limit their recruitment. As in: Join up and you'll definitely never get any.
Tech, I feel you. I did have some weird gripes and ideas about women when I felt completely rejected. However, I felt more mad at our social conditioning and the effects on male and female sexual expression. I never feel content with the current system, and work to overturn and expose it all the time. That requires lots of self reflection, though, and I can't reflect on myself when I feel enraged.
This phenomenon has given me an increased sense of urgency about launching a new sexual revolution, better than the old one.
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Kraichgauer
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26 Apr 2018, 7:33 pm
I don't want to sound sympathetic to people harming others or kicking-off when they've had too much, for pragmatic reasons, even with moral judgment withheld, such can't be offered.
What I can say is in my own case I've had a relatively high IQ, been very observant of what my life is, and my short-term memory and executive functioning deficits have had me throughout my youth looking like the sort of guy that most people would calculate on a subconscious level blew his brain out with drugs or likes to huff paint and steal credit cards. I remember so many times when my friends had friends who brought an attractive female acquaintence with them and just being civil I tried to strike up conversation they were quite rude or if it was something intelligent I was saying their moral indignation at 'this slug is trying to sound intelligent' got quite a strident 'you'r full of sh**!' type of emotional response with or without the words as such. I had the simultaneous joy of both getting treated like a rapy creep just by being in the same public places, without even looking or making any sorts of revealing gestures (let alone not having any sexual interest to reveal) and I also - at work - had a new girl trying to flirt with me every month and within a week pretty much hating me either because I didn't perform as expected or because they realized that they'd been duped by a 'ret*d' guy.
When enough people are put in exquisite misery by society it really boils down to a numbers game. If it's millions you might figure that one in 10,000 will kick off like some of the guys mentioned. The real miracle is that the number isn't higher. When a person's told in so many ways that they're worthless, better off dead, or better yet - have something of a perverse honor obligation to take their own lives for being whatever it is they are - it has side effects. The best way I can sum all of this up in a sentence - with one person dealing with their agency in the face of tragedy and suffering is their moral battle, however looking much larger numbers like aggregate groups - pressures become destiny. It's much like if you put a big red button in the middle of central park that would cause the extinction of humanity - any one given person, the overwhelming majority, wouldn't want to be anywhere near that button but it's very being there with so much traffic would make it's getting pressed a certainty.
I've also had the dips through personal hell where I've had the experience of seeing just how frayed a person can get and how much a person and their self-control, moral math, etc. can be changed by different kinds of internal agony. It genuinely scared me to see just how thin my self control could get shaved (not toward harming other people thankfully but in some other ways) and I try to imagine what a society is setting itself up for if millions of men and women are in situations where society has broken so many of it's basic promises to them that they feel like they have nothing to lose and mountains of resentment they could resolve by taking the black pill.
The really sad and disgusting thing about all of that - there's probably nothing we can do about it. Human beings are generally on this earth to, if not outright kill, take everything away from their competition. It's a constant cauldron of people trying to step on each other's heads to get to the top and where the top is fixed people are keeping their own little ledgers and dossiers of the mistakes of anyone around them to use at opportune times. Creating 'losers', both male and female, is a part of how this system grades all of us on a bell curve and I can't imagine any amount of technology, or even increase in IQ collectively, ever fixing the pernicious things that happen as a sheer side effect of us socializing and competing in large numbers.
Sorry for the long and dark journey but that's about where this sort of topic takes me. I just hope like heck that do find some sort of 'soma' like Brave New World or something like that to medicate the people we're trampling on because if we don't we'll have more than enough technology to assure that our extinction won't be anything like an if but a certain yet unknown when.
Women get their fair share of horrible treatment and yet remain in the vast minority when it comes to being perpetrators of mass shooting, sexual assaults, and violent crimes in general...particularly those where the motive is romantic or sexual rejection. When women are unable to have their romantic/sexual desires filled, they typically do not go on the war path. They tend to direct their negative emotions inward at themselves.
I think testosterone has a way of turning negative sentiments in to outward aggression in a minority of men, and while it is a minority of men, it's a large enough minority to be a concern to the rest of the world.
I don't really understand what goes on in these mens' head where they decide they are entitled to sex or have a right to affection from a woman, or that women should be punished for rejecting them and that punishment should be rape or death. That is utterly twisted to me and I can't imagine ever feeling that way towards men. But I know most men don't understand it either and are more likely to be a victim of male violence than a perpetuator of it, and they are just as deserving of protection from it as women.
I see anti social male violence in general much like a sex linked disorder. Most males manage having a lot of testosterone just fine, but for a minority of males, in the presence of other factors, testosterone will prove to be a negative tipping point.
It reminds me of the practice of capping in "The White Mountain Trilogy". Most people responded to the capping just fine, but it caused some people to go insane and wander aimlessly.
techstepgenr8tion
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26 Apr 2018, 8:04 pm
It probably is the testosterone that makes the difference. I remember Jordan Peterson recently saying that if you had two people in a room and you had to guess which one was more violent, one being male and one being female, the odds of the more aggressive being the male would be 60% - which isn't too far from 50% at normal levels but if the bell-curves taper off in the same shape it would make the third upward standard deviation almost all men.
We're sitting on top of a very gnarly 3.5 billion year old software stack. It seems to throw both genders more than their fair share of unhappy curve-balls and I get the impression quite a bit of it would be alien to what most of us would be consider resembling human persona.
I think there are a lot of things that stack on top of people. I haven't studied these guys, maybe I should to see if my guesses about them are right, but I'd figure that their lives were quite traumatic and singlehood and not having sex were sort of the symbolic albatross hung around their necks by other people.
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The loneliest part of life: it's not just that no one is on your cloud, few can even see your cloud.
26 Apr 2018, 8:20 pm
It probably is the testosterone that makes the difference. I remember Jordan Peterson recently saying that if you had two people in a room and you had to guess which one was more violent, one being male and one being female, the odds of the more aggressive being the male would be 60% - which isn't too far from 50% at normal levels but if the bell-curves taper off in the same shape it would make the third upward standard deviation almost all men.
We're sitting on top of a very gnarly 3.5 billion year old software stack. It seems to throw both genders more than their fair share of unhappy curve-balls and I get the impression quite a bit of it would be alien to what most of us would be consider resembling human persona.
I think there are a lot of things that stack on top of people. I haven't studied these guys, maybe I should to see if my guesses about them are right, but I'd figure that their lives were quite traumatic and singlehood and not having sex were sort of the symbolic albatross hung around their necks by other people.
While I think a lot of these men really are lonely and have rather understandable emotional needs for a romantic relationship, I think there is also the issue of the fact that obtaining a girlfriend and losing one's virginity is seen as a kind of litmus test of worthiness in many societies. A basic thing, that if a guy can't manage, indicates that something is seriously wrong with him (I personally do not hold such notions), and internalization of this notion is what makes rejection feel like such an epic threat to these men. I they see women like a trophy that attests to their value as a person. But then some of them are just pure narcissists who feel they are deserving and entitled to her.
Elliot Roger was a narcissist.
techstepgenr8tion
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26 Apr 2018, 8:59 pm
Yeah, I'd think there has to be an underlying pathology for the abuse and human cruelty to exacerbate. Otherwise most people, regardless of the weight they're carrying, between their decency and basic pragmatism wouldn't find rape or shooting sprees either desirable or practical.
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26 Apr 2018, 10:53 pm
in brazil, we don't have much of this style of violence (mass shootings unrelated to other crimes), but there was one case in 2011 that a guy got into a school and killed 12 people, whom 10 were girls aged around 11-14 years old. during the attack, he shoot the girls on the face, and for boy's legs or arms. it didn't get clear if he was connected to some group although there was some speculation connecting him to a misogynistic online group, also he nurtured some obsession with islam that came from his interest on violence/terrorism, he left a letter asking to be buried on some islamic tradition but there was also a lot of elements typical for pentecostalism, he also wrote how his attack was an answer for bullying and against coward people who took advantage of people's weakness.
the police stated that the case didn't had any political motivation. the guy clearly aim to kill girls and people seem to not be ready to understand how it is a political motivation. even if this motivation is backed by personal experience, when you decide to shoot as many as possible people from a certain group there is a huge political motivation over it. it's not some sort of passionate revenge (although analyzing the big picture, violence is highly "genderized").
i feel concerned this sort of crimes seems to get more and more often and it seems that more it happens, more it inspire others. this is a sad outcome of dehumanizing woman, which creates an unfulfilling sense of entitlement and lack of empathy, but also from a society which repress men to address and treat their frustrations openly.
The_Face_of_Boo
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27 Apr 2018, 7:28 am
the police stated that the case didn't had any political motivation. the guy clearly aim to kill girls and people seem to not be ready to understand how it is a political motivation. even if this motivation is backed by personal experience, when you decide to shoot as many as possible people from a certain group there is a huge political motivation over it. it's not some sort of passionate revenge (although analyzing the big picture, violence is highly "genderized").
i feel concerned this sort of crimes seems to get more and more often and it seems that more it happens, more it inspire others. this is a sad outcome of dehumanizing woman, which creates an unfulfilling sense of entitlement and lack of empathy, but also from a society which repress men to address and treat their frustrations openly.
This is certainly a case of radical islam (which is by default a genderized ideology), he shot the girls on the face probably because he thinks them as sinners for being unveiled.
Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 27 Apr 2018, 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
27 Apr 2018, 7:28 am
It probably is the testosterone that makes the difference. I remember Jordan Peterson recently saying that if you had two people in a room and you had to guess which one was more violent, one being male and one being female, the odds of the more aggressive being the male would be 60% - which isn't too far from 50% at normal levels but if the bell-curves taper off in the same shape it would make the third upward standard deviation almost all men.
We're sitting on top of a very gnarly 3.5 billion year old software stack. It seems to throw both genders more than their fair share of unhappy curve-balls and I get the impression quite a bit of it would be alien to what most of us would be consider resembling human persona.
I think there are a lot of things that stack on top of people. I haven't studied these guys, maybe I should to see if my guesses about them are right, but I'd figure that their lives were quite traumatic and singlehood and not having sex were sort of the symbolic albatross hung around their necks by other people.
While I think a lot of these men really are lonely and have rather understandable emotional needs for a romantic relationship, I think there is also the issue of the fact that obtaining a girlfriend and losing one's virginity is seen as a kind of litmus test of worthiness in many societies. A basic thing, that if a guy can't manage, indicates that something is seriously wrong with him (I personally do not hold such notions), and internalization of this notion is what makes rejection feel like such an epic threat to these men. I they see women like a trophy that attests to their value as a person. But then some of them are just pure narcissists who feel they are deserving and entitled to her.
Elliot Roger was a narcissist.
This is just my opinion, but, in my experience, men are more emotionally reliant on women than women are on men.
It's one of the reasons married men live longer than single men, but married women drop dead around the same age as single women. What increases a woman's lifespan are relationships with other women.
I have a hunch that it may be a factor in fueling the resentment.
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Kraichgauer
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27 Apr 2018, 9:57 am
It probably is the testosterone that makes the difference. I remember Jordan Peterson recently saying that if you had two people in a room and you had to guess which one was more violent, one being male and one being female, the odds of the more aggressive being the male would be 60% - which isn't too far from 50% at normal levels but if the bell-curves taper off in the same shape it would make the third upward standard deviation almost all men.
We're sitting on top of a very gnarly 3.5 billion year old software stack. It seems to throw both genders more than their fair share of unhappy curve-balls and I get the impression quite a bit of it would be alien to what most of us would be consider resembling human persona.
I think there are a lot of things that stack on top of people. I haven't studied these guys, maybe I should to see if my guesses about them are right, but I'd figure that their lives were quite traumatic and singlehood and not having sex were sort of the symbolic albatross hung around their necks by other people.
While I think a lot of these men really are lonely and have rather understandable emotional needs for a romantic relationship, I think there is also the issue of the fact that obtaining a girlfriend and losing one's virginity is seen as a kind of litmus test of worthiness in many societies. A basic thing, that if a guy can't manage, indicates that something is seriously wrong with him (I personally do not hold such notions), and internalization of this notion is what makes rejection feel like such an epic threat to these men. I they see women like a trophy that attests to their value as a person. But then some of them are just pure narcissists who feel they are deserving and entitled to her.
Elliot Roger was a narcissist.
This is just my opinion, but, in my experience, men are more emotionally reliant on women than women are on men.
It's one of the reasons married men live longer than single men, but married women drop dead around the same age as single women. What increases a woman's lifespan are relationships with other women.
I have a hunch that it may be a factor in fueling the resentment.
And while women who have lost their husbands can live long afterward, men who lose their wives very often fo;;ow in short time after.
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