Bernie, the only major dem canidate that is pro democracy?!

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The_Walrus
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23 Feb 2020, 3:59 pm

RushKing wrote:
I would rather have Buttigieg win first-past-the-post than leave the door open for superdelegates determining the election.

Just listen to yourself. You'd rather use a less democratic system in order to deny people you don't like the vote.

Let's say Donald Trump decides he's going to run for the Democratic nomination. He gets his supporters to register as Democrats. He wins 21% of the delegates, while six other candidates split the remainder fairly evenly between them.

First Past The Post is an indefensible affront to democracy, preferable only to dictatorship. Superdelegates have just as much right to their opinion as you do, they've earned it by putting in years of work for America. How is denying delegates the right to ranked preferences in any way democratic?

Now for 2022, yes, reform the heck out of the system. Give the folks at home a ranked or rated ballot card to fill in. That would improve the system. Superdelegates are a flaw. But making the system worse just because it gives your guy a better chance is at complete odds with everything the democratic party stands for - and frankly it explains why Bernie isn't part of it.



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24 Feb 2020, 8:31 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Superdelegates have just as much right to their opinion as you do

Yes, but no individual should have the right burn the votes of 10,000 people. Superdelegates aren't a system of democracy, that's a system called oligarchy.



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25 Feb 2020, 1:35 am

Just gonna leave these here:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/20 ... id=rrpromo
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/be ... nt-runner/

Hopefully he's got enough delegates to just win outright. It will make the rest of the election must more straight forward. Sanders might be en route to repeating Trump's performance in 2016.


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25 Feb 2020, 4:24 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Just gonna leave these here:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/20 ... id=rrpromo
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/be ... nt-runner/

Hopefully he's got enough delegates to just win outright. It will make the rest of the election must more straight forward. Sanders might be en route to repeating Trump's performance in 2016.

In 2016 some anti Trump conservatives proven wrong in the election and kicked out of power consoled themselves by saying as president he can’t be that bad. That did not not work out. Will that happen with “moderate” dems?


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25 Feb 2020, 1:00 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
In 2016 some anti Trump conservatives proven wrong in the election and kicked out of power consoled themselves by saying as president he can’t be that bad. That did not not work out. Will that happen with “moderate” dems?


Time will tell. Sanders isn't authoritarian like Trump, so he'll be more be constrained by moderates than Trump has been. I don't believe Sanders followers will make the entire Democratic party terrified of them in the same way Trump's base has had that effect on the GOP.


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25 Feb 2020, 2:44 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
In 2016 some anti Trump conservatives proven wrong in the election and kicked out of power consoled themselves by saying as president he can’t be that bad. That did not not work out. Will that happen with “moderate” dems?


Time will tell. Sanders isn't authoritarian like Trump, so he'll be more be constrained by moderates than Trump has been. I don't believe Sanders followers will make the entire Democratic party terrified of them in the same way Trump's base has had that effect on the GOP.

As always time will tell and not that much more time as we will know a lot more after Super Tuesday.

The progressive base so far has achieved
1. Forced a reluctant Pelosi to impeach Trump even though she knew it would backfire.
2. In the first debate all the candidates raised their hands at the idea of a study for reparations for past slavery, endorsed the idea of some sort of amnesty for immigrants here illegally ideas that would have been considered politically toxic a few years ago.
3. Obamacare considered a radical change when implemented is considered almost or actually reactionary in that party now.
4. Pretty much all the candidates pretty much said at the last debate that systematic racism is an essential or the essential characteristic of America.
Agree with these ideas or not most of the politicians felt the need to state them.

Nevada is a desert cowboy state whose economy is centered on the uber capitalist Vegas and Reno and Sanders just won that states caucus in a landslide. Epic and game changer are overused expressions but an accurate description of what is apparently happening in the Democratic Party now


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25 Feb 2020, 3:13 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
In 2016 some anti Trump conservatives proven wrong in the election and kicked out of power consoled themselves by saying as president he can’t be that bad. That did not not work out. Will that happen with “moderate” dems?


Time will tell. Sanders isn't authoritarian like Trump, so he'll be more be constrained by moderates than Trump has been. I don't believe Sanders followers will make the entire Democratic party terrified of them in the same way Trump's base has had that effect on the GOP.

As always time will tell and not that much more time as we will know a lot more after Super Tuesday.

The progressive base so far has achieved
1. Forced a reluctant Pelosi to impeach Trump even though she knew it would backfire.
2. In the first debate all the candidates raised their hands at the idea of a study for reparations for past slavery, endorsed the idea of some sort of amnesty for immigrants here illegally ideas that would have been considered politically toxic a few years ago.
3. Obamacare considered a radical change when implemented is considered almost or actually reactionary in that party now.
4. Pretty much all the candidates pretty much said at the last debate that systematic racism is an essential or the essential characteristic of America.
Agree with these ideas or not most of the politicians felt the need to state them.

Nevada is a desert cowboy state whose economy is centered on the uber capitalist Vegas and Reno and Sanders just won that states caucus in a landslide. Epic and game changer are overused expressions but an accurate description of what is apparently happening in the Democratic Party now


I hope you're right, but I'm still hesitant to believe it. I've never seen the views I hold as likely to become mainstream within American politics, and I feel like parts of the Democratic party are more hostile to progressive and social democratic views than they are to more right wing views. Time will tell, but consider me a cynical optimist.


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26 Feb 2020, 1:26 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
In 2016 some anti Trump conservatives proven wrong in the election and kicked out of power consoled themselves by saying as president he can’t be that bad. That did not not work out. Will that happen with “moderate” dems?


Time will tell. Sanders isn't authoritarian like Trump, so he'll be more be constrained by moderates than Trump has been. I don't believe Sanders followers will make the entire Democratic party terrified of them in the same way Trump's base has had that effect on the GOP.

As always time will tell and not that much more time as we will know a lot more after Super Tuesday.

The progressive base so far has achieved
1. Forced a reluctant Pelosi to impeach Trump even though she knew it would backfire.
2. In the first debate all the candidates raised their hands at the idea of a study for reparations for past slavery, endorsed the idea of some sort of amnesty for immigrants here illegally ideas that would have been considered politically toxic a few years ago.
3. Obamacare considered a radical change when implemented is considered almost or actually reactionary in that party now.
4. Pretty much all the candidates pretty much said at the last debate that systematic racism is an essential or the essential characteristic of America.
Agree with these ideas or not most of the politicians felt the need to state them.

Nevada is a desert cowboy state whose economy is centered on the uber capitalist Vegas and Reno and Sanders just won that states caucus in a landslide. Epic and game changer are overused expressions but an accurate description of what is apparently happening in the Democratic Party now

Didn't Hillary Clinton support an amnesty for undocumented immigrants?

Also I'd suggest looking at the UK Labour Party as an example of what the Democrats under Sanders could look like, particularly with the Republicans under Trump as another point of reference (i.e. how a hostile regressive left takeover of a progressive liberal party would bear out in an American context). Labour activists aggressively purged moderates from positions of power in quite a brutal way. Some of those moderates were the equivalent of "blue dogs" and not the sort of people who it is easy for a liberal to have sympathy for, but some of them were just regular hard-working people who were doing a good job but didn't like parroting Marxist rhetoric.

I know there's some thinking that America needs a regressive left leader who will sort out your dumpster fire of healthcare bankruptcies and workers' (non-)rights, but I don't think the suffering and sacrifice that would entail would be worth it. Give me a liberal, progressive candidate who can take the country forward, rather than radically sideways.



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26 Feb 2020, 1:37 pm

A dilemma is a problem offering two possibilities, neither of which is unambiguously acceptable or preferable. The possibilities are termed "the horns of the dilemma", a clichéd usage, but distinguishing the dilemma from other kinds of predicament as a matter of usage.

Sanders v. Trump ... Gonorrhea v. Syphilis ...