The Awesome story of Our Lady of the Grand Return

Post Reply New Topic

"People often say, "It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic." That is not true! That would mean that one could be saved without the true faith. No. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, although a prodigal; and however great a sinner he may be, he still has a right to mercy. Through his faith, a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas the heretic is not. And how hard it is to make him become one!"

-St. Peter Julian Eymard


O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to Thee, and all those who do not have recourse to Thee, especially the Protestants, and all those recommended to Thee!

I have trouble with understanding this too. "able fully serve Her and Her Son and God". It is like Jesus comes in second place. "Dear Blessed Mother pray for this woman". Does this mean she has the same omniscience as God? that she can hear all the millions of prayers lifted up to her daily? How is praying to her and serving her not veneration? I am not writing this to give you a hard time. It is just hard to understand. It is like it is not supposed to be worship even though it seems to have all the attributes of worship.

This article I found might be of some interest in this discussion, since it gives some arguments about why praying (interesting enough the dutch translation of this word (bidden) is also an archaic word for asking and the word pray itself goes back to Latin word for asking) is not a form of idolatry. And that charge that it is, might also imply that you should also never ask a living person to pray for you.

In the case at hand it means talking to a spiritual being.

Best thing about Finding
God on a Beach Without
Human Footprints is Seagulls
Need Look no Further than their Wings.
Meh, Seen one Temple
of God Seen the ALL;
Birds of A Feather God on a Wing;
God Imprisoned
In a Book
or Having
To Prove God
Exists is surely
Always Something
That 'A Wing' Will Never 'See'
Humans And ALL Their Idols Without Wings.

Sure I'll speak with you and answer your questions, I much rather dialogue with you, than debate with Fnord. In a saner age, debating would work, but in this day and age people tend to double-down and just keep on attacking and refusing to reason. So I'd rather engage in Socratic Dialogue than debates.

So in regards to your questions:

St. Luke 2:51 states: "And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject to them. And his mother kept all these words in her heart." DR (Emphasis mine) Now Catholic Tradition states that Our Lady and St. Joseph didn't actually have parental authority over Our Lord but rather, out of love for His parents and to set a good example to us, He submitted Himself to His parents. In Heaven, out of love, Our Lord continues to respect and honour His Mother even though He is over Her. In fact Our Lady has very specific place in God's hierarchy, God is not second to Mary, Mary is second to God, She is the greatest of all God's creatures, the Queen of Creation, below God but above everything else. This can best be summed up in the phrase Ad Jesum per Mariam, "To Jesus through Mary," the best way to go to Jesus and God is through Our Lady. Now we can, should and do go to God directly, but here's the thing, Mary, in addition to being the greatest of God's creatures, is also the most beloved of God's creatures. God loves Mary, and thus it pleases Him when we turn to Her and love and trust Her and ask for Her intercession. Thus venerating Our Lady is an act of Love to God, we please Mary for God's sake, as a way of Loving Him.

In regards Our Lady being able to hear our prayers, all the Saints in Heaven can hear our prayers:

"And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints..."

-Revelation 5:8 DR (Emphasis mine)

Heaven is a state of Loving Union with God and thus, human souls in Heaven are radically different from human souls in this world. In a sense the human souls in Heaven are more human than the souls on earth, they're closer to how God originally intended humanity to be. (Though in another sense, they are much less human than us, as they, with the exception of Our Lady, are separated from their human bodies, and Catholic philosophy emphasizes the unity of the human person, body and soul, so much so that St. Thomas Aquinas was actually reluctant to say that Christ was human while physically dead on Holy Saturday, "except in the [sense] of a deadman.") Catholic Theology (I should clarify that I'm not a professional Catholic Theologian, and am only saying what I learned from others, don't take what I type here as authoritative Church teaching, I am only a layman.) teaches that the Saints in Heaven are all-seeing, but not all-knowing, they can see all of human history and how it unfolds, but God blocks their ability to comprehend it beyond what they've experienced in their earthly life. On Youtube, I heard a lecture by a Catholic Priest on Heaven, (and the Four Last Things as a whole) and he likened it to a man looking for his car keys while they are sitting right in front of him on his desk, he can see them, but he doesn't realize they are there; it's the same thing with the souls in Heaven. (Though maybe Our Lord has allowed Our Lady to see more things than He would allow the other Saints to see, but I don't know for sure.)

Finally, in regards to veneration and adoration, first let's define the terms and their origin. Veneration refers to great honour one gave to a high-ranking official in Roman society, these acts of honour were never considered a form of worship. When Rome converted and became Catholic, this term was adopted to refer to honouring the Saints. The Saints, while physically dead, were spiritually alive and in Loving Union with Life Himself. Thus the Saints should be honoured as the high-ranking members of the Kingdom of God, and special honour should be paid to Mary since She is the Queen (Gebirah, not Malkuth for you Protestants reading this) of the Kingdom and more importantly Our Mother.

Adoration, in Pagan Rome referred to deep acts of worship one gave to a god whom one had a special devotion to. When Rome converted, this term came to be used to refer to deep acts of love and worship one owed to God alone. When it comes to adoration, there are two aspects that identify it, interior and exterior. The exterior aspect of devotion is sacrifice, when one offers sacrifice to someone or something, that's an act of adoration. In Latin America, people who are involved in Santeria and the various folk religions there, offer sacrifices to the Saints, this is not veneration of the Saints but rather adoration and thus, an act of idolatry. As mentioned above, the proper form of exterior adoration for a Catholic is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, but one does not adore God only by going to mass, this is where the interior aspect of adoration comes in. The interior aspect of adoration, involves one's relationship with that which one is adoring. When adoring God, one recognizes that God is God, that He is the Supreme Being, Perfect Love, Perfect Truth, Perfect Justice etc. this is how we know that Protestants adore God despite their adoration consisting in only prayer and not sacrifice. (again apart from High-Church Lutherans and Anglicans, but that's a more complex topic) When it comes honouring Our Lady, when one understands who Our Lady is, the relationship clearly becomes one of veneration not adoration, because Our Lady is human not divine, She is the Immaculately Conceived New Eve, and completely dependent upon God for Her very existence. Now if one were to recognize that and yet still offer sacrifice to Her, that relationship would cease to be one of veneration and become adoration and idolatry. (and frankly, I would argue blasphemy, but again, I'm not a theologian so I could be wrong here.) But every other pious act one does to Our Lady, praying, bowing before statues and icons of Her, speaking of Her with love and honour, all of that is in no way adoring Her, only venerating Her.

I was quite a theology geek, so I know the theoretical difference. Still, in practice common in my country, I find this cult of Virgin Mary <some pronouns>, Virgin Mary <some different pronouns>, Virgin Mary From Some Painting, Virgin Mary From Some Other Painting etc. not fitting the theory.

Thank you for your response. It takes me a while to process things so I will get back to it if I end up with any questions. In the meantime what I know is that I have read the New Testament. And there was nothing that suggested anything about Mary along the lines of her being the Queen of Heaven and interceding for us etc. I got the idea of what my relationship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is supposed to be quite clearly. But nothing about a relationship with Mary. Or any angels or other heavenly beings.

There is no Biblical basis for the Cult of Mary to exist. The cult finds its roots more than 500 years after the death of Jesus, and solely in the misogynistic teachings of Pope Gregory I (540-604), who defined Mary as a sexual vessel and excluded women from the priesthood because they represented (to him) the very embodiment of sexual temptation.

Thus, while believers in the Cult of Mary allegedly "venerate" her for her purity of purpose, they also sexualize her and all women everywhere solely for their reproductive function.

How do these not fit "the theory?"

You're welcome, I see, well here's some biblical passages that can help emphasize the importance of Our Lady. First and foremost, there is the Annunciation, the Feast Day is on March 25th, the great Marian Saint, St. Louis de Montfort, identified it as the holiest of all Marian Feast Days; both because it was the day God the Son became flesh and dwelt among us, and because of something that we will see when we get into the passage:

"26 And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her:

Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said to her:

Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. 31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. 33 And of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 And Mary said to the angel:

How shall this be done, because I know not man?

35 And the angel answering, said to her:

The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren: 37 Because no word shall be impossible with God.

38 And Mary said:

Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word.

And the angel departed from her."

-St. Luke 1:26 - 38 DR

Consider the fact that in this scene, we have a woman and an angel speaking. Back in Genesis, in the Garden of Eden, we also have a scene of a woman and an angel speaking, namely, Eve and Satan. In Genesis, Eve listens to Satan, the evil angel, disbelieves God and takes the forbidden fruit from the tree, which brings about the fall of the human race. In the Gospel, at the Annunciation, Mary listens to St. Gabriel, the good angel, She believes God and bears fruit that will be put on a tree, the Cross, which will bring about humanity's Redemption. The most important aspect of the Annunciation in regards to Our Lady, is what we call Her Fiat, Her "Yes!" to God: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word."

The Fathers and Doctors of the Church are clear that the fate humanity rested in Mary's hands at the Annunciation; She could have said "no," but She said "yes!" By saying "yes," She in a sense saved us, saved all of humanity, by allowing humanity to be saved.

The second passage I want to share with you, comes from the account of the Crucifixion in St. John's Gospel. It is very important to remember that this is the Crucifixion, the Holiest Act in human history, God the Son sacrificing Himself on the Cross to Redeem Humanity of their sins:

"25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen. 26 When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother:

Woman, behold thy son.

27 After that, he saith to the disciple:

Behold thy mother.

And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own."

- St. John 19:25 - 27 DR

Now Protestants claim that here, Our Lord was simply giving His Mother to St. John for Him to look after and care for in Her old age. But as I mentioned above, this is the Crucifixion, the holiest event in human history. Why would Our Lord, in the middle of Redeeming humanity, suddenly become concerned with the temporal affairs of His Mother? There are a whole host of other problems with the Protestant interpretation of this passage as well by the way, but I think this is biggest and most important problem with this interpretation. It is far more likely that Our Lord is giving Mary to His followers through St. John to be their Mother, Our Mother; especially considering that we Catholics consider the Apostles to be the first Bishops of the Catholic Church and thus, St. John was acting on behalf of all the Faithful by accepting the gift of the Lord's Mother becoming Our Mother. (It had to be St. John, because the Pope, St. Peter, denied Our Lord three times, and he and all the other Apostles ran away. Yes, even from the very beginning we had a Pope and clergymen who weren't the best, and even an outright wicked bishop by the name of Judas Iscariot.)

So in this passage we have Mary be given to us by Christ to be Our Mother, and thus we're supposed to embrace Her as our Mother. I'd also argue that in the Annunciation, the passage mentioned above, we see Mary in a sense becoming Our Mother, (I believe I might have read this from either the writings of St. Louis de Montfort or St. Alphonsus de Liguori, but I could be totally wrong here, don't take what I say here as Church teaching or something from a professional scholar or holy person.) because Our Lord is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and Our Lady is the Mother of that Life; not mention Her Fiat, in and of itself was in a sense, a life-giving act.

Now in the final passage, we're going to look specifically at Our Lady's role as Queen of Heaven. Our Lord is the Messiah, the Christ, the Son of David, He was prophesied to restore the Davidic Kingdom, which He did, though not in an earthly sense. In this passage, we're going to see an aspect of the Davidic Kingdom that's not that well known by most non-Catholics:

"19 So Bathshe′ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni′jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. 20 Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.” "

-1st Kings 2:19 - 20 RSVCE

Here we see the role of the Queen in the Davidic Kingdom, the Queen is the mother of the king, not the wife, because back then, the Ancient Israelites were allowed to practice polygamy. The Queen Mother in Ancient Israel held the specific title of Gebirah which roughly translates to "Powerful Woman," (compare with El Gibor, "Mighty God," and Gabriel, "Power of God.") this is a great title for Our Lady since She truly is the most powerful woman ever, even a magazine a few years back published an addition stating as such. In this passage, notice what Queen Bathsheba is doing, she's interceding on behalf of Adonijah, this was one of the duties of the Queen-Mothers; and I've heard that the Holy Roman Empresses, and the Queens of Medieval Europe, also engaged in these acts of intercession, in imitation of Our Lady and the Davidic Queen-Mothers. If Our Lord is Messiah, the Davidic King, it only makes sense that His Mother would be Queen in Davidic fashion, interceding to the King on behalf of Her subjects.

One more bonus side-note, before I finish here, in the Davidic Kingdom, there was also the Master of the Palace, a sort of Prime Minister who looked after the Kingdom while the King was away. In the Old Testament, the Master of the Palace was given The Keys of the Kingdom, in the New Testament, Our Lord says that He's giving St. Peter the Keys of the Kingdom. Thus to this very day, the Keys of the Kingdom have appeared in the Papal Coat of Arms and flag.

Sorry if I overwhelmed you with all of this, I sometimes tend to underestimate how much information I put into my various works.

I just quoted several Biblical passages in support for the Cultus of Our Lady. The earliest prayer to Our Lady ever recovered so far, apart from the Hail Mary which appears in Sacred Scripture, (See St. Luke 1:28 & 42-42) is the Sub Tuum praesidium which dates from the 3rd Century, to the 4th Century at the latest, long before Pope St. Gregory the Great. Here's the beautiful prayer in its English rendition:

We fly to Thy patronage,
O Holy Mother of God;
Do not despise our petitions
in our necessities,
but deliver us always
from all dangers,
O Glorious and Blessed Virgin. Amen.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go do my daily mediations.

Thank you.

"And Mary said: 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word.' And the angel departed from her." -- The Gospel of Luke 1:38

In this one passage, Mary herself declares that she is less than the Lord, not superior in any way, shape or form. She only gave birth to Jesus' physical body, not His Spirit, which is of God. Thus, Mary is the mortal mother of Jesus the man, and not the mother of immortal G^D. She is undeserving of worship.

Jesus gave Mary over to be cared for by John as his 'foster' mother. She was not given over to us as our mother in any way, shape or form.

The Story of Bathshe'ba, in context, in 1st Kings 2:18-25...

When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.

“I have one small request to make of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.”

The king replied, “Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you.”

So she said, “Let Abishag the Shunammite be given in marriage to your brother Adonijah.”

King Solomon answered his mother, “Why do you request Abishag the Shunammite for Adonijah? You might as well request the kingdom for him—after all, he is my older brother—yes, for him and for Abiathar the priest and Joab son of Zeruiah!”

Then King Solomon swore by the Lord: “May God deal with me, be it ever so severely, if Adonijah does not pay with his life for this request! And now, as surely as the Lord lives—he who has established me securely on the throne of my father David and has founded a dynasty for me as he promised—Adonijah shall be put to death today!” So King Solomon gave orders to Benaiah son of Jehoiada, and he struck down Adonijah and he died."

Obviously, this story has nothing to do with Mary's alleged pre-eminence, but with Adonijah's audacity and hubris before King Solomon.

@EzraS: Do not be deceived! Read your Bible and decide for yourself. There are those who would rely on your lack of Biblical knowledge to convince you of their deceptions. Don't fall for it!

Out of context and incomplete, of course.... and is another useless prayer to a dead mortal.A statement that is no more than prideful "Virtue Signalling", at best.

No one is claiming that Our Lady is above God, this accusation, quite frankly, reveals more about your own prejudice and lack of knowledge than it does the Truth of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

Christ did not take on just human flesh, or a human body, He took on a human nature, He if fully human, fully Divine, not Divine nature possessing human flesh. Women don't give birth to natures, they give birth to persons, Our Lady gave birth to a Divine person, not His flesh, not His nature. Not to mention, your own theology would make Our Lady even more the Mother of God since according to you, She gave birth to God possessing human flesh, as opposed to the fully human, fully Divine Christ, as orthodox theology states. But regardless, all this is irrelevant since we're not even discussing the Dogma of Theotokos, we're discussing the Annunciation.

So in the middle of the Most Holy Sacrifice on Mount Calvary, Our Lord suddenly stops everything to give Our Lady over to the care of St. John. This behaviour seems to greatly contradict somethings Our Lord said in the past:

"Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

- St. Luke 9:62 DR

"The Bathsheba Story" is not the point, the point is, that this is how the Davidic Kingdom functioned, there are Queen-Mothers. And notice that after the division of the Kingdom, only the Faithful Southern Kingdom had Queen-Mothers, not the apostate north, there was only a Queen-consort, (Malkuth) who went by the name of Jezebel.

Looks like we have a liberal troll