Why people with ASD / Autism / AS should not be a neo nazi

Page 2 of 18 [ 274 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 18 Next

cberg
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Dec 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,183
Location: A swiftly tilting planet

22 Oct 2020, 10:52 pm

Being a neonazi & simply parroting their rhetoric are not the same thing. I'm not going to abjectly deny the plausible presence of any ideology that nasty.

_________________
"Standing on a well-chilled cinder, we see the fading of the suns, and try to recall the vanished brilliance of the origin of the worlds."
-Georges Lemaitre
"I fly through hyperspace, in my green computer interface"
-Gem Tos :mrgreen:

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,455
Location: New York City (Queens)

22 Oct 2020, 11:05 pm

cberg wrote:

Ugh nope nope nope. Being valued strictly for one's capabilities by a disastrously misguided society is the wrong kind of employment & social standing in every possible way.

I certainly didn't meant to suggest that Dr. Asperger's complicity in killing the more severely disabled kids was a good thing! I was just pointing out an inaccuracy in what the OP wrote.

_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,455
Location: New York City (Queens)

22 Oct 2020, 11:24 pm

Two old threads on the topic of Dr. Asperger and Nazism: Asperger’s Children: The Origins of Autism in Nazi Vienna (News and Current Events, 07 Nov 2019) and "Asperger's Children: The Origins of Autism in Nazi Vienna" (Autism Politics, Activism, and Media Representation, 02 Apr 2018).

The 2019 thread begins with the following quote from a review of the book Asperger’s Children: The Origins of Autism in Nazi Vienna by Edith Sheffer:

Quote:

In Nazi Germany paediatric psychiatrists served as consultants to youth groups, welfare offices and schools. It was the form their ‘national service’ took. They tracked subjects through childhood, shaped what was considered normal behaviour, and identified and codified what was not. Ernst Illing claimed that he could make a call about a child at the age of three or four – he could spot what he called ‘Gemüt poverty’. Gemüt meant ‘soul’ or ‘spirit’, but also gestured to a person’s capacity for tribal belonging: for feeling and emoting spirit, as in national or school spirit; and for social competence. None of these meanings was new, but how ‘Gemüt’ came to matter was. Gemüt-poverty was a medico-spiritual diagnosis that could send children to their death at a place like Spiegelgrund, a children’s killing centre in the outskirts of the Vienna Woods, part of the Steinhof mental hospital.

Thus it would appear that Dr. Asperger, by making his argument about "code-breakers," was trying to save some of the children whom other Nazi doctors wanted to kill. Ernst Illing apparently wanted to kill all kids who lacked "capacity for tribal belonging" and "social competence."

Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

23 Oct 2020, 3:19 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

Thus it would appear that Dr. Asperger, by making his argument about "code-breakers," was trying to save some of the children whom other Nazi doctors wanted to kill. Ernst Illing apparently wanted to kill all kids who lacked "capacity for tribal belonging" and "social competence."

Yes,
This is my educated guess, based on my life experience.

cberg
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Dec 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,183
Location: A swiftly tilting planet

23 Oct 2020, 3:49 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

cberg wrote:

Ugh nope nope nope. Being valued strictly for one's capabilities by a disastrously misguided society is the wrong kind of employment & social standing in every possible way.

I certainly didn't meant to suggest that Dr. Asperger's complicity in killing the more severely disabled kids was a good thing! I was just pointing out an inaccuracy in what the OP wrote.

I wasn't even talking about that! Historical inaccuracy is one thing, whether or not any of us interpret anything accurately is very much another. In the here & now, is there any context by which to interpret ASD that wasn't set fourth during the nazi era? Yes or no?

Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

23 Oct 2020, 4:13 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

Quote:

In his book NeuroTribes, Steve Silberman4 has portrayed Hans Asperger as a pioneer of neurodiversity who resisted eugenic ideology by promoting a positive and benign view of autism. The Austrian pediatrician gave his first public lecture on “autistic psychopathy” in October 1938, just months after the incorporation of Austria into the Third Reich. That lecture (later to become the basis of his more widely cited 1944 thesis) described 4 patients whose striking combination of intellectual gifts and social interaction deficits Asperger likened to that of “little professors.” All had been seen in an innovative special education unit, the Heilpädagogik Station, characterized by an optimistic therapeutic philosophy contrasted with the fatalism so often associated with institutions. Interestingly, Asperger commented that he had specifically chosen “not too severe and thus more promising cases,” suggesting to Silberman that he was aware that they represented part of a broader continuum of autism. He thus emphasized the continuity of the syndrome with intellectuality rather than mental retardation. “Who among us does not recognize the autistic scientist,” Asperger asked, “whose clumsiness and lack of instincts have made him a familiar caricature, but who is capable of extraordinary accomplishments in a highly specialized field?”4 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/ ... /e20171419

Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

23 Oct 2020, 4:20 am

cberg wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

cberg wrote:

Ugh nope nope nope. Being valued strictly for one's capabilities by a disastrously misguided society is the wrong kind of employment & social standing in every possible way.

I certainly didn't meant to suggest that Dr. Asperger's complicity in killing the more severely disabled kids was a good thing! I was just pointing out an inaccuracy in what the OP wrote.

In fact, Bleuler, an incredibly influential psychiatrist (who also coined “schizophrenia”) was one of main reasons eugenics became a prevailing ideology. There were no Nazis pressuring him into this (as some argue may have been the case with Asperger); rather, he was the pressure.

https://intersectionalneurodiversity.wo ... -asperger/

Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

23 Oct 2020, 4:25 am

Quote:

Scientific Origins of Eugenics

Elof Carlson, State University of New York at Stony Brook

The eugenics movement arose in the 20th century as two wings of a common philosophy of human worth. Francis Galton, who coined the term eugenics in 1883, perceived it as a moral philosophy to improve humanity by encouraging the ablest and healthiest people to have more children. The Galtonian ideal of eugenics is usually termed positive eugenics. Negative eugenics, on the other hand, advocated culling the least able from the breeding population to preserve humanity's fitness. The eugenics movements in the United States, Germany, and Scandinavia favored the negative approach.

http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/html/eug ... 2text.html

Quote:

In the decades following World War II, with more emphasis on human rights, many countries began to abandon eugenics policies, although some Western countries (the United States, Canada, and Sweden among them) continued to carry out forced sterilizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

cberg
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Dec 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,183
Location: A swiftly tilting planet

23 Oct 2020, 5:00 am

In fairness I wasn't talking about eugenics either, except in cases where the ideology applied to treatment of people with ASD (high functioning mostly) - it's about the basics of what everyone expects of us. Wherein somebody resents our existence, they can be educated.

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,504
Location: Long Island, New York

23 Oct 2020, 5:24 am

cberg wrote:

Civil liberty in the United States IN NO WAY EXTENDS TO ACTIONS WITH ANY POSSIBILITY OF HARMFUL EFFECTS. It never did & never will.

Neocons do your homework.

There are incitement laws but they do not apply to any possible harm but to an immediate threat of harm.

Lee Rowland is a senior staff attorney with the ACLU’s Speech, Privacy, and Technology Project. She has served as lead counsel in numerous federal First Amendment cases.

_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman

KT67
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2019
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,807

23 Oct 2020, 6:03 am

Very few people consider themselves to be Neo-Nazis. Very few persuasive people who do consider themselves Neo-Nazis and are basically the opposite of autistic (thought leaders, seductive types who promote the ideology) consider it wise to openly call themselves it while promoting the ideology.

Therefore, if someone is falling into the ideological trappings of it, it's a good idea to combat the ideas. Regardless of how they identify.

I think this is esp true if someone is autistic or young. Because they might be taking things at face value which are actually dog whistles towards more dangerous consequences which they personally are too naive to foresee. Having someone stepping in and saying (extreme example) 'well, how do you expect to create a homeland for white people where nobody else lives?' will get them to think. Ask questions. I can basically script an entire conversation out of this, which will ultimately end in such ideology being seen as inevitably violent. Either that or they get shown up cos they're stuck in a loop, which will make them reflect on why they are stuck.

Whereas 'you sound like a Nazi when you say that' will just result in things like 'I'm not a Nazi, I'm a white identitarian' or 'well I mean it peacefully, just get people to go away, I didn't advocate for genocide'...

I'm talking here about young people or people who are naive to social interaction. By all means, when debating David Duke, call him a Nazi. But it isn't effective to just call someone who's falling into a trap laid by David Duke 'a Nazi'. That will just push them further into the Nazi cult.

Ultimately you have to ask yourself - are you doing it to reduce hatred in the world? Or are you doing it to virtue signal and look good? I know when I've had my own immorality in the past (on a separate issue but still), someone meeting me on my level and explaining why I'm wrong has worked a lot better than calling me a negative label I didn't identify with.

_________________
Not actually a girl
He/him

carlos55
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,997

23 Oct 2020, 9:01 am

Never come across anyone with Nazi views on here.

I’m not a US citizen but even classIng Trump or his alt right supporters as nazis is a bit strong if not silly.

_________________
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man."

- George Bernie Shaw

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,939
Location:

23 Oct 2020, 9:33 am

cberg wrote:

... Being valued strictly for one's capabilities by a disastrously misguided society is the wrong kind of employment & social standing in every possible way...

Sadly, that is exactly how it is:

• Our society values its individuals for their ability and willingness to contribute to that society, for their entertainment value, and for their superficial "beauty".

• Our current society is misguided in these respects (and in many others, as well).

How our society can continue to function in this way is way beyond my comprehension.

Last edited by Fnord on 23 Oct 2020, 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,504
Location: Long Island, New York

23 Oct 2020, 9:41 am

Since Capcha is not allowing me to reply to Mona Pereth’s assertion that Hans Asperger saved some Autistics I have to make a separate reply here instead of quoting her post as I wanted to.

Dr. Aspergers views that people that were a little disabled could be useful to society were consistent with Nazi eugenics.

The Doctor and the Nazis

Quote:

The “benevolent doctor” version of Asperger had strong appeal, and would inform many assessments of his work. Indeed, an overwhelmingly positive narrative of Asperger as a man of moral rectitude came into focus in the new millennium, elevating him almost to the status of hero.

Above all, this view rested upon Asperger’s clear statements, from early in the Nazi era, defending the right of mentally challenged children to society’s support. During the 1938 talk in which he described his autistic cases for the first time, he declared, “Not everything that falls out of line, and thus is ‘abnormal,’ has to be deemed ‘inferior.’ ”

Likewise, at the conclusion of his better-known 1944 paper, the one that later caught Lorna Wing’s attention, he saluted the medical profession’s “duty to stand up for these children with the whole force of our personality.”

Thus, the case seemed strong for Asperger as a humanitarian and liberal thinker. It was an optimistic and inspiring portrait that spoke to modern sensibilities. And it would prove to be seriously flawed.

During the third year of the Second World War, Asperger noted, he had received letters and reports “from many of our former children” serving on the front lines. In 1941, he wrote that these boys were “fulfilling] their role in the professional life, in the military, and in the party.”

Thus, again, his boys had demonstrated their “social worth”—in terms that the Third Reich appreciated.

That said, Asperger’s vision of special education and what it could achieve was not quite as exceptional as his supporters suggest. Contrary to popular understanding, special education had its place in Nazi Germany. The Reich allowed that disabled children who could become productive citizens should be afforded support and education to achieve that end. Even the Hitler Youth had special units for the blind and the deaf.

Hans Asperger, National Socialism, and “race hygiene” in Nazi-era Vienna by Herwig Czech for Molecular Biology

Quote:

As mentioned, of these 30 cases, there are only 2 in which Asperger appears to have taken a more positive position than his peers at Spiegelgrund: In November 1938, he saw 6-year-old Johann T., whom he described as “an erethic, feeble-minded boy who recognizes no danger and who, unless constantly supervised, due to his restless drivenness endangers himself and his surroundings.”

There is one case in which documents suggest that Asperger may have helped shield a patient from possible persecution. In the fall of 1939, he examined Aurel I., the 14-year-old son of a civil servant, who showed “behavioral peculiarities.” In his report, Asperger wrote that the boy would suffer mental and physical damage if placed among a group of children, which resulted in his exemption from school. His family then moved him to the countryside, where he spent the war in the care of relatives. In a 1962 letter, his sister credited Asperger with having saved Aurel from “castration” and possibly worse.

Apart from this qualification, the sample yields no evidence that Asperger proved more benevolent towards his patients than his peers at Spiegelgrund when labeling children with diagnoses that could have an enormous impact on their future—quite the opposite.

Edith Sheffer in her book referenced earlier also found no evidence that Asperger was secretly undermining the Nazi eugenics program

Opinion=mine
As part of a generation that were not only bullied and excluded for our autistic traits but whose condition was not even recognized until well into adulthood having that condition named for a Schindler like hero who saved people like us fulfilled a basic need that further helped boost our shattered self esteem. In the case of Hans Asperger it blinded us to the realities staring us right in the face yours truly very much included. We know the man worked for the Nazis for years and that the Nazis were extremely thorough in everything they did yet a lot of us bought into the notion that somehow he was able to fool them all.

Getting finally around to the question raised by the OP it is this over compensation for the past and continuing othering that leads to some autistics to become Aspie Supremacists and supporters of Nazi causes. It is emotionally satisfying to believe that your troubles are a result lesser people misunderstanding your superiority. The neo nazis know this, it is central to their recruiting.

Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 23 Oct 2020, 11:22 am, edited 3 times in total.

carlos55
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 5 Mar 2018
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,997

23 Oct 2020, 9:57 am

One of the most peculiar things in politics is why nazi’s are called “far right”

Hitler was a racist socialist, he was a member of the National Socialist Party in the 30’s.

In the UK we had the BNP which was labeled “far right” again his policies were socialist and on the left.

Jiheisho
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2020
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,507

23 Oct 2020, 10:42 am

carlos55 wrote:

It takes more than a label to make you "socialist."

Were the Nazis Socialists?

Perhaps you think Sir Oswald Mosley was a socialist too; he certainly admired Hitler. And to label the BNP anything but a far-right nationalist party is disingenuous. Perhaps you think the National Front is also socialist.

British National Party

Last edited by Jiheisho on 23 Oct 2020, 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Page 2 of 18 [ 274 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 18 Next

Jump to:

Why people with ASD / Autism / AS should not be a neo nazi Post Reply New Topic

Why people with ASD / Autism / AS should not be a neo nazi