Real Equality.

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My concern about Holocaust denial would be I go visit one of the concentration camps and I would be too concerned to ask any questions there about it because I would be worried it would be misconstrued as me denying the holocaust. The fact you can be arrested and charged, I wouldn't really want to defend myself and ask for a lawyer and having to prove my disability and my medical history to prove I am a curious person and I try to understand things, not ask questions to deny it. Not worth the trouble. It's safer to ask in the US when you visit the Holocaust museum. The worst that can happen is being kicked out of the museum. But do not ask in EU where Holocaust denial is illegal because you do not want one of your questions being misconstrued as that.

I guess you have some misconceptions about how "banning Holocaust denial" works.
Asking questions at a museum is absolutely okay. Not knowing things is okay, especially when you want to learn.
Publishing things like "it didn't happen, it's a massive hoax" would put the author and the publisher in trouble.

Oh it only applies to people publishing books or articles about it?

So someone can still say in EU that it didn't happen if it's out of their mouth to a co worker or a friend or neighbor or something correct? What about on social media?

I was thinking of a question like "How did they kill 6,000 people in one day, that is a lot?"

If someone said it just once, at least it Poland, the most likely reaction would be "WTF, didn't you have grandparents to tell you or something?" but most likely nothing involving any authorities.
If someone kept telling such things to coworkers, they would likely ultimately find someone uncomfortably interested with them.
Social media are seen as a form of publishing.

That would prompt a lecture about rather impressive logistics of Holocaust.

That would prompt a lecture about rather impressive logistics of Holocaust.[/quote]

The natzis were extremely efficient at killing, especially the Einsatzgruppen. And I agree it would take a lot to explain how scarily effective their logistics were. I've read a lot of books on this and visited some death camps and ghettos in Poland and Prague because my grandmother was a holocaust survivor. Even a cursory look on Wikipedia can explain some of the things you want to know.

It seems we've gotten a bit off topic, so MG. I haven't been on here long, but I always find you to be pleasant and respectful. I also understand where your coming from since I go to an orthodox synagogue. It seems being conservative in beliefs is looked down upon as of late. Even though the community I'm in is one of the most accepting and non judgmental I've ever been part of. People only see what they want to see and assume I'm a bigot. Just assuming that is prejudice.

Prejudice goes both ways, but some people I encounter don't see that. This is my understanding from what I read of yours in this thread. I think thats what your trying to say? That because you're white conservative and religious if you have an opinion about someone not of this group you're automatically going to be labeled a bigot? But if someone of a seemingly minority group has an opinion, whatever it maybe, about conservatives or deeply religious people that it's ok. There's a double standard, at least thats what I've encountered. I hope I understood you correctly? This is why I generally stay out of politics and certain topics. To me its not worth the stress of needing to defend myself.

This one thing that happened to me may be an example of what your trying to say. So here's my brief encounter with the twilight zone:

I was working at a fabric store. This lady asked me how much fabric she needed to cover her couch. I asked for dimensions so i could figure it out. She didn't have them, she hadnt even measured. I told her i needed dimensions to put into the formula we have. I was then told I was racist because I wouldn't help. I was very confused. What did race have to do with couch measurements. I asked what I had done to upset her. I was told "that because I was a white girl I was inherently racist, and thats why I wouldn't help her." Ive never been more offended in my life. When I told her that by definition her statement was itself prejudice and racist, she laughed and said "how can I be racist, I'm black." I felt like I was in the twilight zone. How did her not taking measurements and expecting me to magically know her couch size when even she didn't mean i was being racist. I asked my manger if we were speaking different languages, if the words meant different things to people of different ethnicities? He laughed and said "no, your alright, don't think about it to hard and don't let one persons idiocy affect you."

Sorry if that was long. And sorry if my story offended anyone. It was just one of many bad experiences I had, I dont think everyone is like that. And idiot is an idiot no matter how big or how small, or what color, or planet their from.

Yah she was an idiot and yes race cards do happen. I am pretty sure other minorities would tell you the same and those who are advocates for the minority.

I mean who doesn't know you need to measure your furniture before you get the fabric? It's the same thing with clothes too when you get them custom made, you give them your body measurements, my height and weight and waist size and bust and from shoulder to helm.

The only white people can be racist thinking is popular in some influential circles particularly academia, and with some media and trendy companies. It is based on a redefinition of racism. This new definition of racism centered on group power dynamics. Since white people dominate the power and wealth in America they are automatically racist because they enjoy the privileges(another redefined word) of being white. While blacks can be prejudiced they can not be racist because they are in the out group according to this line of thinking. Whether the individual has power is irrelevant.

According to the previous definition of racism this way of thinking is racist because it posits a negative trait to a group. Some proponents of the new definition say defining whites as racist is not a insult but a neutral descriptor.

This world view has been around the fringes of academia for decades. In the last few years with alt right terrorism, the election of Trump this view has gained agency. Specifically the killing of George Floyd was a tipping point. This way of thinking is is gaining mainstream acceptance at lightning speed.


This thread belongs in PPR not here.

Yes I agree this probably should be moved to PPR since the OP seemed to have made a political post in guise but had left his vague intentionally.

I would say this is something I was guilty of, being so glad to be white because I didn't have to deal with any racism from people when I was learning how black people were treated and my mom telling me about racist people still existing would just make me be glad I am not black because I was already treated different enough.

It's like being so glad you are not disabled so you wouldn't have to face limitations disabled people face. Being glad you are not blind or deaf or in a wheelchair.

I remember when autistic people used to compare it to being black and I didn't get it then but after understanding more about racism, it makes sense now. There are so many similarities.

Yes I did face prejudice and discrimination because of my disability and the fact I talked funny, but it was nothing bad as how black people are treated.

I would think it would be natural to be glad you are not this or that when certain people have it hard due to disability or race.

I remember thinking people thinking they are so glad to not be in Europe in World War II because of the Nazis and places being bombed. I wonder if it would make them a xenophobe by that logic?

I even remember thinking "I am so glad to be a girl because I would never have to get drafted into war." Was I misandriast?

Is it really a bad thing to glad to not be a minority because of how badly they are treated and the prejudice they have to face in society?

Was I an ableist for being so glad to not have AS so severely because it meant I would have had a hard life in general? I am pretty sure everyone would feel this way. It would be an illness if someone actually wanted to have a disability. But there are people out there that do actually want to have a different skin color. They call it trans racial. They will adopt another culture and act like them because of it.

Last edited by League_Girl on 29 Oct 2020, 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I agree to move the topic to PPR but please, do keep its high standard of culture and respect

Real equality is a nice goal, and can really only be gained by also cultural shifts that give a more level playing field to different groups, which somewhat require protections against things like actual hate speech that will keep one group down. It is not the same thing if I said "heterosexual couples are gross" as if I said "homosexual couples are gross", things are already not level with these groups that saying the same statement would have the same effect. Specifically because straight couples in general have not had a history of being persecuted for just being straight.

Non-binary genders are also not recognised in a lot of places and people, while binary genders don't receive that, it would make sense that people with "they them" pronouns would get a bit strong for recognition. And things like singular "they" has been used for a long time for cases where gender may be ambiguous, if someone was under a sheet and you did not know what gender someone is, you wouldn't just assign a gender in calling them "him" or "her". I just used it that sentence of what if a person was in such a situation and what they would say.

But also another thing, people can generally be allowed to make fun of their own group, making fun of another group not so much.

Antrax's solution to racism/sexism/[insert]-ism:

1) Adopt a culture where people are treated the same based on their actions regardless of other characteristics.

2) Adopt a culture where people understand that their actions determine their outcomes

3) When deviations from this culture are observed emphasize the cultural shift to treating actions equally being the determining feature of society instead of pursuing thought crimes.

4) Wait a long time for these culutural shifts to take shape and prejudiced thinking to disappear.

Will never happen, because of a million reasons, but any other approach I've seen is doomed to failure.

You haven't given me much cause to think you're some kind of bigot. This is a big issue for me as an aspie too, as socializing is already a minefield when you don't have to talk about politics or social issues. And I say that as someone on the left.

The best advice I can give is to be careful where you post, since social media is a good place to get pounced on for these kinds of missteps. Make note of how people react to certain comments when you or someone else make them. If someone does get on you for saying something, don't get defensive and try to remain calm--even if their behavior isn't really fair. If you'd rather not engage, or if things go poorly when you do try to respond, it's okay to remove yourself from the discussion if you can't handle the hostility. That's much easier to say when the conversation is online and not in person though

The other thing would be to try and educate yourself (i'm starting to hate that phrase) on the kinds of issues you're worried about talking about. For example: someone worried about being perceived as sexist could read about feminism, or at least how to not come off as sexist. I'm not asking you to change your beliefs per se. But if you know more about what beliefs or statements might rub some the wrong way, the less likely you are to rub people the wrong way. And the more you know about these things, the more evidence you can use to back up whatever stance you're taking.
Be careful doing this kind of research though, since different sources about, for example, feminism could say differing things while claiming to speak for everyone. Try to avoid deciding it's all rubbish just because of more radical or argumentative feminists. Contrary to what radfems might say, feminism is more than anything about gender equality. Gender inequality tends to benefit men, but there are also ways men are harmed by gender inequality as it exists: eg, men being perceived as poorer parents; men being abused being taken less seriously than women being abused; etc. Don't let a loud minority of radicals sour you on the more reasonable majority.
I don't know your beliefs on feminism, this was just me using one example for this kind of thing. I hope I didn't sound presumptuous.

You could try discussing things with those close to you so if you do say something "wrong", they'll be more patient or understanding. The only issue I see with that is getting caught in a kind of echo chamber if you share most beliefs in common. Too much of what we believe is influenced by what's acceptable to those around us--consciously or unconsciously.

As a 20th century man myself, I can relate to your confusion and frustration with the new rules and amendments to the social structure of our changing world. When I was younger, I was simply baffled by the transgender movement and the idea of one's gender as "non-binary". Since then, I have met and come to know a transgendered friend who would refer to himself as a male when he was hanging around the house, but when he went out, dressed as a female and he referred to herself thusly [seriously, I am not trying to be insensitive at all, this is how Billie personally sees things]. I have become aware that in the Nordic region [I believe Finland] pronouns have been amended to be non-binary as they pertain to people, which I believe is an excellent step towards equality as it relates to a gender-neutral society.

As far as the trans movement itself goes, I finally came to realize that while I had only one positive masculine influence growing up, in my case my stepfather [my biological father chose to leave us when I was three and my mother's brother/my godfather are both quite different from one another, but neither was a positive role model to a boy being raised by a single mother, and I never knew either of my grandfathers as they both of them had died before I was born], through most of my formative years and adolescence I had no adult male influence in my life. Yet, I have found myself as not only a typical cisgendered male [I identify with the sex of my birth], but one seen as a role model by many younger than me who came to know me over the years, and a genuinely good person by most others [my age and older] who had gotten to know me. If I could become, more or less, the sort of man whom I believed embodied positive masculinity without much outside influence from older men I knew whilst growing up, it became clear to me: who am I to question anyone who identifies with a gender other than their sex at birth?

For the record, I was raised in a progressive Catholic household, and had a parochial Catholic school education until high school [around 13 years old when I was promoted a grade and went on to state college at 15]. My mother was the only one in our family who was not xenophobic or overtly racist, and she taught me that the words of Jesus spoke of equality to everyone [love thy neighbour/let he who is without sin cast the first stone], and as such, if one's lifestyle brought no adverse effects to themselves or others, we are called upon to not judge them for simply being who they are. If I knew I was a man, which I do, and I believed that one ought to be whomever they are most comfortable being [again, unless this causes harm to themselves and/or others], then anyone from the LGBT spectrum was simply born the way they are and ought to be respected and celebrated. As far as Catholicism goes, Pope Francis has stated publicly, and to some LBGT individuals directly, that God made them that way and that they ought to be welcomed with open arms anywhere, as Christ taught us to be like unto Him.

Now from an Aspergerian perspective, I agree, formatting to social rules and structures with which we are not familiar is antipathic. However, most of us, as I believe you do as well MG, feel that equality is important for all in spite of any unharmful discomfort we on the spectrum feel in amending and/or formatting our language, the very way with which we can express our thoughts, opinions, and feelings to others. Please let me know how you feel, I value your friendship and hope that I may have been able to provide some personal insight and perspective to what it is that you are feeling.

Thanks Hank. Appreciated.

Here the UK laws are far from equal. The laws are racist, sexist and all sorts of ists as they are made by the minority group campaigners who are not interested at all in setting up equal rights. They are only interested in setting laws to hurt those who are not like them. That is not equality. Equality means EQUAL.
Equality DOES NOT PROMOTE ANY GROUP, but gives every group be they a minority or weker group, or a mjority group, the same standrds and opportunities.
It certainly should not push anyone ahead of another as that is not what equality means. That is favouritism if one wants a mild term for it, or discrimination if one wants to call a spade a spade.

Restricting freedom of speech incase someone may be offended from a minority group is ONLY acceptable, if the same laws work the other way where someone from a minority group can also be in trouble for offending someone who is classed as being in a majority. The law HAS to work both ways as if it does not, we have no equality, but we have legal discrimination which makes a mockery of the whole point of making the laws.

The problem today is we are now being governed by newscasters oppinions and the law is a wishy washy mush that can mean whatever they want it to mean to prove their oppinions are right. This does not help anyone in the long term and endangers collapsing the core stability of society.

Last edited by Mountain Goat on 30 Oct 2020, 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well stated, I quite agree. Here in the States, we're having our own issues with a formally disenfranchised minority group which seeks to promote their agenda upon everyone, which as of today has so far contributed to some of the largest voter participation we have ever seen, in many states and regions. Meanwhile, suspicious deaths of our citizens at the hands of authority figures continue, and minority transgendered people [like my friend Billie] are being murdered at rates never seen before. I hope Billie is doing well and healthy, I haven't spoken to the family since their house was condemned by the city [for reasons I've yet to understand, they feel that they've been singled out for frivolous reasons, and their own neighbours quite agree].

My heart especially goes out to the oppressed people of Poland this week. Here's hoping we don't see the same sort of issues happen in the United States, but I'm not convinced that they won't come to pass here. People are people no matter whom they are, and everyone deserves to be treated equally. People are not truly free unless nobody is being oppressed. We'll none of us ever be perfect, but we can only seek to be better people than we were yesterday.



Point well taken. I have been told things for being male, heterosexual, looking white [I'm European/Central American Creole], and being Catholic which would be socially unacceptable and considered actionable if I were part of a different sub group. I consider myself to be politically progressive/liberal but again, some issues I have with other liberal Americans are that while most agnostic/antitheist liberals will strongly attack antisemitism as it pertains to followers of both Islam and Judaism [as do I, anti-Islamic attitudes run deep here, yet most of the oppressions here which I have personally endured come from white Evangelical Christians], yet these same agnostic liberals may sometimes themselves criticize or attack any and all Christians as being "part of the problem".

No... it goes both ways. Racism/xenophobia is not limited to white against minority discrimination. In Japan, for instance, many people born there who had a foreign parent or grandparent are shunned as "gaijin" or outsiders by those whom have documented their bloodlines as "fully Japanese" in origin. I had a friend from Okinawa who told me that his people are often shunned and/or referred to as something translating to "half-breeds" by many people in mainland Japan. I know two wonderful sushi chefs in a nearby city called Dalton, Georgia one of whom is half black and half white, and raised in the Jewish faith. The other is half Vietnamese and half Laotian. Neither of them could get jobs in Japanese restaurants in Atlanta or Chattanooga. The hibachi chef there is a Latino immigrant! It's one of the best restaurants in the region, and why should it have been difficult for these three gentlemen to have been hired for a Japanese restaurant when their skills are quite proficient and honed through years of study? The sushi chefs both personally cite racism as the primary difficulty for them finding employment in either Chattanooga or Atlanta. I myself have been verbally attacked and shunned by black people in New Orleans on more than one occasion, all of this isn't reverse racism, as it is often called, it's just plain RACISM in and of itself.

When I was young in the 1990's, I remember a movement towards "NO LABELS" and universal acceptance. Now in the 21st century, folks seem to be finding new labels for themselves [and trying to "take back" old ones which were no longer socially accepted] and tribalism is at heights not seen in the US since the end of our Civil War over 150 years ago! It is indeed confusing and often a difficult road to plow.

I totally agree with what y'all said. That's what I was trying to say. I have trouble getting out what's in my head lately but thats what I've been facing too. I'm not allowed to have a voice because I'm a white Jewish girl, who apparently has a perfect life. Even though when we first moved where I live over 20 yrs ago we had swastikas painted on our car and got death threats on the answering machine from the very active KKK members around us. They don't wear sheets anymore but they are active. I could go on about how from kindergarten through high school I was told I was going to hell until I accepted Jesus. One day I had an outburst cause I had enough. I said "I'm a proud Jew. My great grandparents were murdered in a death camp in Germany, my grandma and her sister escaped and smuggled to the US. And I will always be proud of her and my family. " their response was, you don't have to get upset
We were just trying to help you so you'd be saved. They didn't even see what they were doing was wrong, just like many people now who say all whites are racist just for being born that color.

My point is silencing any whole groups voice is a VERY DANGEROUS ROAD. This new "definition " of racism is nothing more than manipulation and propaganda. People need to study history and see how these things start. The beginning is always subtle and small. My rabbi was right. The world is turning upside down.... again. Will we never learn from history. We keep repeating the same mistakes over and over on a never ending wheel.