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Pepe
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26 Jan 2021, 4:17 pm

Fnord wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Trump said "peacefully and patriotically march on the Capitol Building"...
After he told his followers, "If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore".  Face it, your heartthrob incited the coup attempt, and he is going down.
Ridicule and disrespect noted.  There was no "attempted" coup, and ultimately, there was no coup in America, as I predicted.
Diversion and denial noted.  Trump lost the election, incited an attempted coup, and then tried to distance himself from any responsibility for what his loyal followers did in his name and under his direction.  Now he is going to trial in the Senate and, at the very least, he will be discredited and disgraced for years -- possibly centuries -- to come.


Denial, no.
A difference of opinion, yes.

Explain to me why I want to pervert reality?
What do I have to gain?

I am not a Republican.
I am not an American resident.
I am not a cyclopean partisan.
I am an objective observer, and The Truth is my thang. 8)

You do realise I want to see the last of Trump, also, right?
If a second impeachment stops him from running for the Presidency again, I hope it succeeds, but only if it is justified. 8)



Pepe
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26 Jan 2021, 4:23 pm

kokopelli wrote:
If they make the trial last as long as possible, then the Senate won't be busy passing Biden's agenda and so Biden can't sign it into law.

Make the trial last four years.


I have heard people making the point that the impeachment is a waste of time, increases divisiveness and prevents the government from moving forward.



Brictoria
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26 Jan 2021, 8:58 pm

Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Trump said "peacefully and patriotically march on the Capitol Building"...
After he told his followers, "If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore".

Face it, your heartthrob incited the coup attempt, and he is going down.


Ridicule and disrespect noted.

There was no "attempted" coup, and ultimately, there was no coup in America, as I predicted. 8)


The closest thing to a coup which did occur was the Speaker of the house trying to subvert the military's chain of command:
Quote:
"This morning, I spoke to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley to discuss available precautions for preventing an unstable president from initiating military hostilities or accessing the launch codes and ordering a nuclear strike," Pelosi wrote in a letter. "The situation of this unhinged President could not be more dangerous, and we must do everything that we can to protect the American people from his unbalanced assault on our country and our democracy."

Quote:
"Any 'safeguards' Milley may have erected to effectively prevent Trump from exercising sole authority of nuclear launch would actually be a 'coup' by the standard definition," according to Vipin Narang, a nuclear policy expert and professor at MIT.

Source: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/08/politics/house-speaker-joint-chiefs-milley/index.html

As far as January 6 goes: Had Mr Trump's words been designed (as some suggest) to trigger an assault on the Capitol building, then why did only a small fraction of those in the city (predominantly those who were at the Capitol building and not where the speech was being made, due to time between speech and entry into the building, coupled with the distance from capitol building where speech was made) actually do anything, given how supportive of Mr Trump most are, and so liable to do what he asks?

Given the FBI believe the assault was planned, rather than a spontaneous event occurring as a result of the speech, it is more likely that a very small minority of those who heard the speech were co-opted into following those who had planned the assault rather than going there with an intention to do anything other than protest:
Quote:
Federal investigators have begun piecing together evidence that some of the insurrectionists who stormed the Capitol on Jan. 6 were executing well-laid plans, deploying communications systems and issuing marching orders to rioters as they battled police.

Source: https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/20/fbi-evidence-capitol-insurrection-plan-460836

Or, put simply, who is more likely to have better understood what was said\intended in the speech:
The large number of his supporters for whom the speech was targeted, and who were peaceful
OR
The small minority who acted unlawfully (excluding those who had planned their actions in advance, so were not influenced by the speech) and those who have a dislike for Mr trump (and so liable to place their own "expectations" on what was meant in order to suit their beliefs regarding him)?



Brictoria
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26 Jan 2021, 9:05 pm

Pepe wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
If they make the trial last as long as possible, then the Senate won't be busy passing Biden's agenda and so Biden can't sign it into law.

Make the trial last four years.


I have heard people making the point that the impeachment is a waste of time, increases divisiveness and prevents the government from moving forward.


It is also possible that this "impeachment" may not even be legally binding...

Quote:
Now that Donald Trump is a private citizen, the Senate should dismiss the article of impeachment against him for lack of jurisdiction. The Constitution is clear: “The president . . . shall be removed from office on impeachment . . . and conviction”—not by the expiration of his term before the impeachment process is complete. It also mandates that “judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal and disqualification“—not or disqualification.

When the Constitution was written, several states allowed impeachment of former officials. The Framers could easily have included that provision, but they didn’t. They also explicitly chose to prohibit the British practice of trial by legislature—excepting only impeachment—and “bill of attainder,” any punitive legislative act against a specific person. The courts have held that the punishments prohibited by the Bill of Attainder Clause include disqualification from holding office. Moreover, the Constitution requires the chief justice to preside “when the president of the United States is tried.”

Source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/no-you-cant-try-an-impeached-former-president-11611167113

Whatever happens, it should be interesting...Both for the outcome, and how the precedent this has set is used in future.



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26 Jan 2021, 11:20 pm

Quote:
Trump likely to be acquitted after majority of Republicans vote that Senate trial is unconstitutional

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_622 ... titutional



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27 Jan 2021, 2:11 am

Pepe wrote:
Quote:
Trump likely to be acquitted after majority of Republicans vote that Senate trial is unconstitutional

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_622 ... titutional
Yeah, I'm not actually expecting most Republicans to do their job. At least Donald made history for being the first President to be impeached twice. Also, once this trial is over he will most certainly fall out of the spotlight as he's not relevant anymore. He can try and run in four years in the likely scenario that he's acquitted, but we won't have to hear from him until then.



ezbzbfcg2
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27 Jan 2021, 2:19 am

Tross wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Quote:
Trump likely to be acquitted after majority of Republicans vote that Senate trial is unconstitutional

https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_622 ... titutional
Yeah, I'm not actually expecting most Republicans to do their job. At least Donald made history for being the first President to be impeached twice. Also, once this trial is over he will most certainly fall out of the spotlight as he's not relevant anymore. He can try and run in four years in the likely scenario that he's acquitted, but we won't have to hear from him until then.

General question, that no one can give a definitive answer for:
Is the Senate obliged to hold a trial in the first place? Just because the House impeaches someone, there's nothing in the constitution to suggest that the Senate MUST hold a trial.



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27 Jan 2021, 5:39 am

Fnord wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Trump said "peacefully and patriotically march on the Capitol Building"...
After he told his followers, "If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore".

Face it, your heartthrob incited the coup attempt, and he is going down.


As Trump had told the Proud Boys during the last Presidential debate, "Stand back and stand by," one might think this action on the Trump cult's part on the 6th had been preplanned.


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31 Jan 2021, 12:10 pm

Donald Trump's entire legal team quits week before impeachment trial: Sources

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All five of the impeachment lawyers who were expected to represent former President Donald Trump have called it quits, sources told ABC News.

The team, led by South Carolina lawyer Butch Bowers, resigned in part because of disagreements over how to mount Trump’s defense, the sources said. The lawyers had planned to argue the constitutionality of holding a trial given Trump is now a former president.

The disagreements over strategy varied, sources told ABC News, but Trump wanted his team to argue there was election fraud, while the lawyers and some top advisers to the former president wanted the focus to remain on the constitutionality of a trial with the president no longer in office.

A source close to the former president described the change as a "mutual decision" between the parties.


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31 Jan 2021, 5:46 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Donald Trump's entire legal team quits week before impeachment trial: Sources
Quote:
All five of the impeachment lawyers who were expected to represent former President Donald Trump have called it quits, sources told ABC News.

The team, led by South Carolina lawyer Butch Bowers, resigned in part because of disagreements over how to mount Trump’s defense, the sources said. The lawyers had planned to argue the constitutionality of holding a trial given Trump is now a former president.

The disagreements over strategy varied, sources told ABC News, but Trump wanted his team to argue there was election fraud, while the lawyers and some top advisers to the former president wanted the focus to remain on the constitutionality of a trial with the president no longer in office.

A source close to the former president described the change as a "mutual decision" between the parties.


Guess Trump will have to get Douchewitz from his first impeachment trial. With any luck, that shyster will finally get his a$$ disbarred for lying for Trump.


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09 Feb 2021, 3:31 am

Schumer, McConnell reach deal on Trump impeachment trial

Quote:
Senate leadership announced on Monday that they have reached a deal on the framework for former President Trump's impeachment trial, which will start on Tuesday.

The timeline would allow the trial to wrap up as early as next week, if both sides agree not to call witnesses.

Under the deal, the Senate will debate and vote on Tuesday on whether the trial is constitutional. The effort to declare the trial unconstitutional will fall short after Rand Paul (R-Ky.) forced a vote on the issue late last month. Forty-four GOP senators supported his effort.

Opening arguments will start on Wednesday. Under the deal, the House impeachment managers and Trump’s team will have 16 hours over two days each to present their case to the Senate.

That’s a faster pace than both the Clinton trial and the first Trump trial where both sides got 24 hours.

The deal also leaves the door open to calling witnesses. The House impeachment managers previously invited Trump to testify under oath, an offer his attorneys rejected. They haven't yet said if they will try to get the Senate to call other witnesses.

The trial will also be paused on Saturday to accommodate a request from one of Trump's attorneys to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

If both sides use all of their time, that would set up opening arguments to wrap on Sunday.

After that the Senate is expected to have time to ask questions of both sides, as well as potential deliberations. In previous trials, senators have had two days for the question-and-answer session. According to the resolution of the trial’s rules, senators will get four hours to ask questions.

Both sides will get two hours for closing arguments.

As in previous trials, there will be equal time for senator questions and for closing arguments and an opportunity for the Senate to hold deliberations if it so chooses and then we will vote on the article of impeachment,” Schumer said.


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09 Feb 2021, 4:04 am

Even if this impeachment doesn't go through the orange messiah will be visiting court more often than he visits his mistresses
https://www.news.com.au/world/north-ame ... f3ad923aa1

A number of law suits waiting for him



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09 Feb 2021, 4:09 am

Have they announced how soon they will be removing the troops from the streets of the capital, following the trial of the leader of the opposition party after the recent election?



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09 Feb 2021, 8:47 am

Why Both Parties Want a Speedy Trump Impeachment Trial

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The second impeachment trial of Donald Trump, like the first, has a preordained outcome. He will be acquitted, with perhaps a few more Republican defections than on February 5, 2020, when Mitt Romney voted “guilty” on one of two articles of impeachment and the rest of the GOP Senate conference rejected the case for removing Trump from office.

According to the latest intel from the New York Times on the likely Schumer-McConnell deal, Schumer is agreeing to the shortest impeachment trial ever.

There may, however, be some wiggle room if Schumer and his conference decide to let impeachment managers call witnesses, as Politico reports:

Senate Democrats … will largely defer to the House impeachment managers on the question of witnesses. The managers have yet to publicly say whether they want to bring in outside witnesses to make their case against Trump, or whether they will simply rely on video and public comments from the former president as evidence.

The argument for witnesses mostly revolves around the possibility of insider testimony regarding Trump’s intentions on and immediately before the January 6 Capitol riot. Other witnesses could be called to talk about the horrific details of the riot itself, though video evidence of the attack on the Capitol and of Trump’s inflammatory speech to the mob could well suffice.

Other than redundancy, the main reason many Democrats agree with Republicans on a brief trial is that it will serve as a live-televised sideshow to the herculean effort underway to assemble and pass much of Joe Biden’s COVID-relief plan via a budget-reconciliation process that requires near-total congressional Democratic support. As the Senate tries Trump, the House will be conducting a laborious committee-by-committee reporting of legislation germane to Biden’s plan, which will be lashed together by the House Budget Committee for an up-or-down floor vote on the week of February 22. If congressional Democrats and/or the White House decide more of a public push is needed to give this bill momentum in the Senate, every minute spent on the process leading up to another Trump acquittal may seem wasted.

But there remains an underlying feeling among some Democrats that Trump should not be allowed to avoid a full accounting of his misconduct a second time. (Republicans blocked the calling of witnesses in the first trial.) A trial that largely ends before it has fully begun will be deeply unsatisfying to those in both parties (though in the case of Republicans, the sentiment is rarely public) who want to give Trump as hard a kick as possible on the road to retirement or irrelevance.


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09 Feb 2021, 9:07 am

Whether Mr. Trump is acquitted or not, any charges brought against him during this impeachment process can and will be used against him if he ever attempts to run for public office again, even if I have to do it myself.



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09 Feb 2021, 11:07 am

Brictoria wrote:
Have they announced how soon they will be removing the troops from the streets of the capital, following the trial of the leader of the opposition party after the recent election?

That has not been decided yet.
Security at US Capitol on high alert for Trump impeachment trial
Quote:
Members of the National Guard still patrol the exterior of the Capitol complex -- in some cases along 8-foot, non-scalable fences topped by razor wire.

The likelihood of planned gatherings or protests in the District throughout the week is minimal.
Michael Litterst, a spokesman for the National Park Service, told CNN in an email that the agency was reviewing only two applications for permitted events in DC this week: one a free speech demonstration calling for Trump to be convicted and another to protest the political situation in Myanmar.

A spokesman for the Metropolitan Police Department said the agency hasn't issued any permits for events.
But law enforcement officials are acutely aware that extremists could be inspired by rhetoric from lawmakers or online narratives that emerge during the trial and in the weeks that follow.

Federal and state officials have previously made clear that the increased security posture in the nation's capital will extend into March due to several concerns, including possible threats around the impeachment trial.
Capitol security officials are also looking at what the security posture should look like months after the trial, as Republicans and Democrats are already raising concerns about some of the precautions becoming permanent.
The final assessment made by retired Lt Gen. Russel Honore, a former Army commander who has been tasked with conducting an independent review of security measures around the Capitol, will be factored into that decision, according to Pelosi, who has largely deflected when asked about changes to the Capitol security posture after the trial.

Asked about security around the impeachment trial, including additional protection for members and their families, a congressional aide echoed what Pelosi and her staff have said in recent weeks, telling CNN: "Honore is looking into member security and will make recommendations about this that the House will review."


I am no security expert but I would think to prevent another ground assault all you would need besides the razor wire fences is a few heavily armed people on each side of the capital and signs clearly indicating anybody that goes uninvited beyond a certain point will be shot.


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