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White privilege isn't real - Jordan Peterson

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TheRobotLives
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19 Feb 2021, 1:16 pm

The people who developed "white privilege" seem to be philosophical materialists.

possessions > poverty
comfort > adversity
status > unimportance
preferential treatment > unfairness
fairness > discrimination
opportunity > certainty

Essentially, that it's better to possess things.

Yet, many great wisdoms tell us that *enduring hardship is what can make you great*.

So, a non-materialist could argue, it's the opposite.


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Fnord
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19 Feb 2021, 1:22 pm

The people who developed white privilege were white people.

The person who first codified "White Privilege" was a white woman with a Bachelor of Arts degree from Radcliffe (Summa Cum Laude in English), a Master of Arts degree from Harvard, and a Philosopher's Degree from Harvard.  Her occupation is listed as "Research Scientist".

What is YOUR claim to fame?



TheRobotLives
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19 Feb 2021, 1:28 pm

Fnord wrote:
What is YOUR claim to fame?

Autistic since birth (probably before that) <--- Beat that! :) :)

To me, that means my brain was engaged in hypercritical thinking all my life.


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19 Feb 2021, 1:37 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
Fnord wrote:
What is YOUR claim to fame?
Autistic since birth (probably before that) <--- Beat that! ...
Autistic people are ALL "autistic since (before) birth".  I was born in 1957, which means I have been "engaged in hypercritical thinking" for nearly 64 years.

So what could make you a greater authority on white privilege than the person who codified it?



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19 Feb 2021, 1:42 pm

It's getting a bit argumentum ad verecundiam in here... :wink:


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19 Feb 2021, 1:47 pm

If "argumentum ad verecundiam" is Latin for "Pi**ing Contest", then I whole-heartedly agree.



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19 Feb 2021, 1:56 pm

slam_thunderhide wrote:
1. The fact that the media and academia constantly say that white privilege is real, and bad, and needs to be tackled is self-contradictory. If white privilege was as real as the media and academia says it is, then the media and academia would not be allowed to say what they do about it.

No, it just means that the media and academia, and to some extent the country as a whole, are in process of moving away from white privilege in favor of a more ethnically inclusive society, but haven't gotten to the latter goal yet, and there still are serious problems that need to be addressed.

slam_thunderhide wrote:
2. The idea that people with privilege have some obligation to give it away to whoever comes along and moans about it is a scam anyway. I could go to China and moan about how many positions of power are filled by Chinese people, and it doesn't mean they'd have some obligation to listen to me.

The indigenous Americans were here before white people were, and the ancestors of most black people were shipped here in chains over 200 years ago. They aren't people who just happened to come along and moan.

slam_thunderhide wrote:
4. Jordan Peterson is what is known as a gatekeeper. He serves to re-direct rightist discontent with the status quo into harmless channels. As evidence for this, take the fact that his videos have been heavily promoted by YouTube since day one, and are still being promoted despite the recent mass censorship there. He has even worked for the United Nations, despite any criticisms he's ever made about "globalism". But I suppose he's still too extreme for some of the posters around here.

Since you call him a "gatekeeper," I take it that means you're further to the right than he is?


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19 Feb 2021, 2:00 pm

When you are accustomed to (white) privilege, equality (with non-whites) feels like a threat.



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19 Feb 2021, 7:00 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
The people who developed "white privilege" seem to be philosophical materialists.


Philosophical materialism is a form of philosophical monism that holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all things, including mental states and consciousness, are results of material interactions. According to philosophical materialism, mind and consciousness are by-products or epiphenomena of material processes (such as the biochemistry of the human brain and nervous system), without which they cannot exist. This concept directly contrasts with idealism, where mind and consciousness are first-order realities to which matter is subject and material interactions are secondary.

It has nothing to do with what you're saying.

TheRobotLives wrote:
possessions > poverty
comfort > adversity
status > unimportance
preferential treatment > unfairness
fairness > discrimination
opportunity > certainty

Essentially, that it's better to possess things.

Yet, many great wisdoms tell us that *enduring hardship is what can make you great*.

So, a non-materialist could argue, it's the opposite.


Okay then, why don't live that life?



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19 Feb 2021, 7:15 pm

His argument seems to be, "I have not done any research and so I am just going to hypothesize with rhetorical devices and come up with a reason to support my position." Naturally, this is just a strawman. Not very impressed.



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19 Feb 2021, 7:32 pm

Fnord wrote:
The only real link between Marxism and the wide array of social movements and schools of thought that Peterson associates with "Post-modern neo-Marxism" is that they all feature complaints about the existence of various forms of oppression.  The idea seems to be that since Marxists think workers are oppressed due to their economic position and feminists think that women are oppressed due to their position in a gender hierarchy, the latter is a "version" of the former; but if thinking that one group is unjustly exercising power over another makes one a "Marxist," then Marxism predates the birth of Karl Marx by pretty much all of human history.  Spartacus, for example, was a Marxist by this standard; so was everyone involved in the American and French Revolutions; and so were the authors of the Book of Exodus.

Mr. Peterson seems to have constructed a "Strawman" and named it "Post-modern neo-Marxism" just so that he has something to trot out to represent everything he hates (i.e., equal rights, liberty and justice for all, et cetera).



I think this destroys your credibility, in regard to being objective, towards Jorden Peterson.

BTW, JP is a theist, which puts me at odds with him, to some degree.



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19 Feb 2021, 7:38 pm

Fnord wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Mr. Peterson seems to have constructed a "Strawman" and named it "Post-modern neo-Marxism" just so that he has something to trot out to represent everything he hates (i.e., equal rights, liberty and justice for all, et cetera).
He's probably against FORCED equality.
If so, then we can further speculate that if he is not forced to treat people equally, he will choose not to.


That direction of speculation is in sympathy with your opinion of the man.
Personally speaking, I think it unfair and without any foundation.



Fnord
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19 Feb 2021, 7:43 pm

Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Mr. Peterson seems to have constructed a "Strawman" and named it "Post-modern neo-Marxism" just so that he has something to trot out to represent everything he hates (i.e., equal rights, liberty and justice for all, et cetera).
He's probably against FORCED equality.
If so, then we can further speculate that if he is not forced to treat people equally, he will choose not to.
That direction of speculation is in sympathy with your opinion of the man. Personally speaking, I think it unfair and without any foundation.
Actually, it is in line with my general opinion of humanity, fair or not.



Pepe
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19 Feb 2021, 8:08 pm

Fnord wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Mr. Peterson seems to have constructed a "Strawman" and named it "Post-modern neo-Marxism" just so that he has something to trot out to represent everything he hates (i.e., equal rights, liberty and justice for all, et cetera).
He's probably against FORCED equality.
If so, then we can further speculate that if he is not forced to treat people equally, he will choose not to.
That direction of speculation is in sympathy with your opinion of the man. Personally speaking, I think it unfair and without any foundation.
Actually, it is in line with my general opinion of humanity, fair or not.


Our opinion on this is in sympathy, generally speaking, but not in this specific instance.
As a psychologist, he is known for humanitarian efforts.



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19 Feb 2021, 10:24 pm

Fnord wrote:
dorkseid wrote:
I think white privilege is certainly a real thing, but it's only one of a multitude of complex intersectional factors in society. The issue is much more complicated than popular intersectional feminists want us to think.
White Privilege is an issue of race, while feminism is an issue of biological sex.


Fnord wrote:
Was the thread you started on feminism going nowhere?


My understanding is that making a statement such as that regarding "feminists" or "feminism" demonstrates a high level of Transphobia on behalf of the person making the statement, given it is deliberately and intentionally excluding trans females from the category of "females" - I even believe there is a special term used for transphobes who espouse this belief...

I'm sure some of the more enlightened members here would be happy to re-educate you on the subject of feminism and transphobia.



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19 Feb 2021, 10:25 pm

Pepe wrote:
I think this destroys your credibility, in regard to being objective, towards Jorden Peterson.

BTW, JP is a theist, which puts me at odds with him, to some degree.


JP is a practitioner of Jungian analytical psychology. That's an esoteric pseudo-science. That should put most scientifically minded people at odds with him.
And he misrepresents most philosophers of the last 150 years he talks about, including the ones he says he has studied for decades.
That puts me at odds with him.


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