I'm going to say it like it is: the Allies in WW2 were EVIL

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15 May 2021, 2:29 pm

Its a complex subject.

The title of the thread is more provocative than what you're actually saying in the original post.

Its a matter of pov. Basically you're saying that what I, a White American, thinks of as "the Good War" is thought of in the third world as just another power struggle between rival gangs of bullies. Neither pov is entirely right, nor entirely wrong.

I have to admit that ...you're saying much the same thing the late George Carlin said here in this Nineties standup in the Elder George Bush era.

Sometimes a truth is more palatable when it comes out of the mouth of a court jester.

The_Face_of_Boo
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15 May 2021, 2:57 pm

Most Arabs were pro Allies though.

Quote:

Gilbert Achcar, a professor of Development Studies at the University of London's School of Oriental and African Studies, argues that historical narratives often over-emphasize collaboration and under-appreciate progressive Arab political history, overshadowing the many dimensions of conflict between Nazism and the Arab World. He accuses Zionists of promulgating a 'collaborationist' narrative for partisan purposes. He proposes that the dominant Arab political attitudes were 'anti-colonialism' and 'anti-Zionism,' though only a comparatively small faction adopted anti-Semitism, and most Arabs were actually pro-Ally and anti-Axis (as evidenced by the high number of Arabs who fought for Allied forces). Achcar states:

The Zionist narrative of the Arab world is based centrally around one figure who is ubiquitous in this whole issue—the Jerusalem Grand Mufti Hajj Amin al-Husseini, who collaborated with the Nazis. But the historical record is actually quite diverse. The initial reaction to Nazism and Hitler in the Arab world and especially from the intellectual elite was very critical towards Nazism, which was perceived as a totalitarian, racist and imperialist phenomenon. It was criticized by the liberals or what I call the liberal Westernizers, i.e. those who were attracted by Western liberalism, as well as by the Marxists and left-wing nationalists who denounced Nazism as another form of imperialism. In fact, only one of the major ideological currents in the Arab world developed a strong affinity with Western anti-Semitism, and that was Islamic fundamentalism—not all Islam or Islamic movements but those with the most reactionary interpretations of Islam. They reacted to what was happening in Palestine by espousing Western anti-Semitic attitudes.[44]

https://themedialine.org/people/when-pa ... e-by-side/

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From French North Africa, he stated, 134,000 Algerians, 73,000 Moroccans and 26,000 Tunisians helped the Allied forces liberate Europe.

shlaifu
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15 May 2021, 3:59 pm

salad wrote:

If the way the Chinese are treating the Uighurs is anything to go by, methinks the Middle East would be doing worse under China than America.

It's probably not, though. Minorities like the Uighurs would be an issue for any non-Muslim majority country, and due to the size of tge minority and the somewhat clearly defined territory, they do pose not just a problem to the sovereignty of the Chinese state, but also to the territorial integrity of the nation.
That is not to say that I agree with how China is handling this, but that national interests are at stake and would be in any other country, too.

However, an ethnic group like the Uighurs in a Muslim majority country, under a foreign colonial power, is very different. In that case, it's just one more group to subjugate, but there's no specific reason to "re-educate" such a group. A colonial power is interested in exploiting the natural resources and labour power of its colonies, not necessarily in expanding their own nation into the colonized territory. Keep the local power structures in place, so you only have to keep the local elites under your influence, and the rest of the population is under their influence.

Historically, the Chinese had not much interest in expansion beyond the Tian Shan and the Himalayans, and were happy with everyone else waging war all over the world to get silver to buy chinese goods. Obviously, nobody knows how it will be in the 21st century...

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15 May 2021, 6:47 pm

I'm glad the allies won. I'd hate for people with disabilities to be gassed and burned in the ovens of concentration camps all around the world, this day and age.

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16 May 2021, 12:17 am

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I'm talking leaders like Muhammad Morsi of Egypt, anti-imperialist Thomas Sankara of Burkina Faso, Gaddafi of Libya just when he began to introduce the petrodollar to Africa, Saddam Hussein right when he began to stop taking orders from America, and Patrice Lumumba of Congo, the 1st and only true leader of the Congo.

I am not sure if keeping Mohammad Morsi would be have been a good thing; obviously a big portion of the people was revolting against him prior the coup, check the images and the news back then; the coup d'état was very popular. Let alone the two dictators you mentioned.

Morsi and his Muslim brotherhood cronies were turning Egypt into Afghanistan; and he was also incompetent.

Quote:

The removal of Morsi from office by the coalition was a result of a coup d'état following protests, that were instigated by frustration with Morsi's year-long rule in which Egypt faced economic issues, energy shortages, lack of security, and diplomatic crises

The Egyptian army is historically secular, and they would never accept a total Sharia rule, they did what they have to do to stop Egypt being radicalized; and Egypt is doing fine now.

I am not sure a unified « caliphate » would lead to a better quality life to Middle Eastern ; surely not to the minorities and the seculars, or even to the moderate Muslims. How are you gonna convince all north Africa and Egypt for example to live under islamist rule? A large majority don’t even stand the local branches of Muslim Brotherhood and yet you expect them to accept a Caliphate rule?

the Iranian and Saudi sharia models don’t look providing an attractive lifestyle to other cultures around.

Economical ans trade union in the form of EU sounds more plausible; the Gulf states already formed a such union and it’s economically successful, they are even talking of making a unified currency. We already have the Arab league which be improved as a secular form of union.

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16 May 2021, 5:29 am

naturalplastic wrote:

NobodyKnows wrote:

magz wrote:

Poles fought for the allies and then - we interpret it that we were sold to Stalin at the Yalta conference. I can get that almost everyone was tired of this war and wanted peace even at a cost of sending millions of people to another evil - but the feeling of being betrayed is here, too.

WWII had very strong Good vs Evil propaganda but while Nazi Germany was evil, the rest for sure weren't saints - and USSR was another evil that was left to be, because, unlike Nazi Germany, it didn't threaten London or Paris.

I've always been impressed with the valor of Polish soldiers in WWII, and recall reading that Polish RAF pilots outperformed native British pilots in the Battle of Britain.

Poland was not "sold" by the western allies at Yalta. Eastern Europe fell under soviet domination because of the nature of the war and how it unfolded. There was nothing that the West could have done to alter that.

The Allies needed Soviet Union's help to defeat the Nazis.
Polish people were ready for another war, this time with the Soviet Union - but the Allies didn't care for it because Soviets did not immediately threaten them. So, we were left to Stalin. A little sacrifice for peace :evil:

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16 May 2021, 4:15 pm

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Every Muslim and Arab and Middle Easterner to this day regrets betraying the Ottomans and wishes that the Arabs never allied with the British and French against the Ottoman Caliphate.

Honestly, I sense Muslim Brotherhood narrative in your talk, there are other parts I find very troubling.
The above quote is so extremely inaccurate and far from the truth; personally I know no secular Egyptian, or Saudi(even the religious ones) or Lebanese who is fan of the Ottomans or regret the alliance with the west against them

.... except the Muslim Brotherhood because Erdogan is one of them

.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs'_Square,_Beirut

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16 May 2021, 4:45 pm

For historical accuracy; there was no time in the entire history of Middle East during the Ottoman rule a true « Ottoman identity » was formed outside Turkey and outside the Turkish people. In fact despite their presence for 400 years, the Turkish language didn’t expand in the area - that should tell something; the literacy was very low in the empire btw

The French stayed way less and yet it is a common language in many parts of ME.

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16 May 2021, 5:10 pm

The Ottomans weren’t exactly nice to their outer provinces.

roronoa79
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16 May 2021, 5:13 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:

Quote:

Every Muslim and Arab and Middle Easterner to this day regrets betraying the Ottomans and wishes that the Arabs never allied with the British and French against the Ottoman Caliphate.

.... except the Muslim Brotherhood because Erdogan is one of them

.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrs'_Square,_Beirut

Yeah that sounds more than a little far-fetched to suggest that 100% of Muslims whose ancestors were ruled by the Ottomans over a century ago unanimously long for a return to being collectively ruled from Istanbul. Did you think the Ottoman Empire was a magical land of sunshine and cooperation between Muslims of all kinds? And not an imperial Turkish state built on the subjugation of everyone else?
The only interpretation of this I can see is plausible is Arabs being rightfully angry with the Entente for promising them national self-determination if they rebelled against the Ottomans only to shamelessly renege on that promise and colonize them once the Ottomans were kicked out.

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16 May 2021, 8:27 pm

salad wrote:

Tell me how America was a good nation when it was openly discriminating against its black citizens, starting coups in other Latin American nations, helping assassinate the democratically elected leader of the Congo, Patrice Lumumba, and creating the situation in the Congo that still plagues that country to this day. Then it went on to start an illegal war in Vietnam (some white wash it and call it a military action, but I call it an illegal war) that killed over a million Vietnamese civilians, led to the Hmong crisis, divided the nation, burned most of the country down and left millions suffering with birth defects from copious use of Agent Orange and Napalm dropped on Vietnamese villages, as well as numerous war crimes and mass rapes such as the My Lai Massacre.

Everything done was claimed to be done for a good cause.

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16 May 2021, 11:33 pm

magz wrote:

The soviets were part of the allied force, and when they entered the defeated Germany, there was a rape-fest that my mother was a victim of, also.

And then there were the eisenhauser death camps...
And then there was the man made famine...

The allies being the good guys? :scratch:

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16 May 2021, 11:58 pm

shlaifu wrote:

salad wrote:

If the way the Chinese are treating the Uighurs is anything to go by, methinks the Middle East would be doing worse under China than America.

Yes, most other countries would engage in genocide/sterilisation and organ harvesting the way the CCP does, in the same situation. <sarcasm>

A CCP apologist?
I hope not...

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17 May 2021, 5:29 am

Pepe wrote:

magz wrote:

According to the movies and video games, yeah.

And don't forget the 2 A-bombs.

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17 May 2021, 5:55 am

I want to add regarding "Morsi" being an example by salad of a good "anti-imperialist" Muslim leader.

O boy, where to even start. First, Mohammad Morsi, is a Muslim Brotherhood, so ideologically their loyalty isn't for Egypt but for the "Umma"; MB don't believe in these borders nor in the modern concept of countries.

You can google about Qatar and Iran's interferences into Egypt during Morsi's rule. During his rule, voices raised calling Morsi to demolish the pyramids, to banish all Shias and Baha'is from Egypt and to make hijab compulsory, not to mention the new constitution that he was trying to implement would have taken their women back to the Middle ages. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... revolution

The army in egypt is not just 'an army' , it's everywhere, their national army probably controls half of their GDP, they own companies, entire industries, very well armed, and they're ideologically very secular - there was no way they would have accepted a such rule peacefully for so long.

Today, even the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar (the highest Sunni cleric in the world at the same level of Pope to Catholics, and the Muslim Brotherhood don't follow him btw) have been issuing very pro women rights fatwas lately, of course thanks to the army's pressure and not really to him :lol:

Quote:

EMPLOYMENT
In his statement, El-Tayeb said that Islam allows women more rights and independence in various fields, such as employment.

“Women are allowed to hold important positions in general including in the judiciary field and Iftaa,” stated El-Tayeb. Iftaa is defined as the eligibility to issue a religious opinion regarding various topics from an Islamic perspective.

Quote:

MARRIAGE
In regards to marriage, El-Tayeb said that the guardians of women in the family, who are mostly men, are not allowed to reject a woman’s wishes to marry a man who proposed to her without a valid justification

Quote:

Lastly, according to El-Tayeb, a woman is allowed to determine her share in her spouse’s fortune if she had a significant contribution to gaining it. El-Tayeb clarifies that examples of cases that shows her contribution would be: “lending him money, working with him abroad, and soon thereafter, it [the wealth] prospered under the name of the husband in form of cash money and\or real estate units,” asserted El-Tayeb, “Therefore, a woman is entitled to determine her share of her husband’s wealth while he is alive or after his death, and this case is not subject to Islam’s inheritance law.”

https://egyptianstreets.com/2021/05/09/ ... ns-rights/

That would not have been possible without that coup.

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17 May 2021, 7:15 am

Pepe wrote:

shlaifu wrote:

salad wrote:

If the way the Chinese are treating the Uighurs is anything to go by, methinks the Middle East would be doing worse under China than America.

Yes, most other countries would engage in genocide/sterilisation and organ harvesting the way the CCP does, in the same situation. <sarcasm>

A CCP apologist?
I hope not...

No, but take almost any incident that ends in "-genocide" that took place in the last hundred years...
But yeah, the organ harvesting is exceptional.

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