Russia... Confused about what's going on...

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r00tb33r
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26 Feb 2022, 5:19 am

magz wrote:

I've been to Crimea in 2004. Russian and Ukrainian speakers were about 50/50.

My stay was a bit earlier than that. I did not see any Ukrainian writing anywhere, not sure about speech. Don't remember the money situation, I think everyone wanted US dollars back then anyway.

The_Walrus
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26 Feb 2022, 7:58 am

Accusing other people of being “narrative driven” works better if you don’t just regurgitate Kremlin propaganda.

r00tb33r
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26 Feb 2022, 8:20 am

The_Walrus wrote:

Accusing other people of being “narrative driven” works better if you don’t just regurgitate Kremlin propaganda.

Considering I'm not directly exposed to it, it's highly unlikely, but if there is any similarity it could be due to presence of actual facts. Since best lies have some truth in them, I suppose it's possible you could find points of intersection with what I've said.

Which statement(s) do you challenge?

The_Walrus
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26 Feb 2022, 8:28 am

r00tb33r wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Accusing other people of being “narrative driven” works better if you don’t just regurgitate Kremlin propaganda.

I’ve already articulated that on the previous page. Your suggestion that giving Ukraine assistance constitutes “meddling”, for example, is clearly not a fact, it’s an extremely biased opinion that I don’t think qualifies as reasonable.

r00tb33r
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26 Feb 2022, 9:18 am

The_Walrus wrote:

r00tb33r wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Accusing other people of being “narrative driven” works better if you don’t just regurgitate Kremlin propaganda.

Financing governments (and their militaries) hostile to your opponents from half way around the world is not "meddling"?

Are you high? Like, are you on a mind-altering substance of some kind?

kraftiekortie
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26 Feb 2022, 10:53 am

Those Azov folks have nothing to do with the Russians killing innocent civilians, and destroying a country merely for imperialistic reasons.

ironpony
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26 Feb 2022, 1:23 pm

r00tb33r wrote:

ironpony wrote:

What I am curious about is, why is Putin invading now, since he has been the leader of Russia for many years now. Is there any significance that waiting until now has, or anything special about waiting until now to do it?

Because there was no motive to do it until now.

For a long time there was a largely cooperative government there until the 2014 coup that threatened warm water access for the Russian navy, which resulted in Crimean annexation. That seemed to hold off the NATO and EU expansion as the country involved in a land dispute couldn't join. In recent months bilateral efforts seemed to increase the likelihood of either membership or NATO cooperation, including new presence of NATO staff (in advisory role) and equipment on the territory of Ukraine. That seemed to have forced Putin's hand.

But I don't see how NATO forced his hand though. It seems like he is just saying that, but the real reason he is invading is simply just for kicks so to speak, unless NATO is really that threatening to a nation's safety and security?

kitesandtrainsandcats
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26 Feb 2022, 1:43 pm

magz wrote:

From the point of view of an American civilian, it's just another war on some other continent.

Perhaps at first glance it looks an odd demographic to highlight, but at least a good portion of the American plastic model building community and industry care very much about people in Ukraine since we use and enjoy their products and are very much aware it is human beings with lives and homes and families who create those products.

From this morning's weekly newsletter from Atlantis who are a model kit manufacturer in New York state;
"
Hello Everyone, Please keep Ukraine in your thoughts and prayers. Ukraine is a big hub for many companies in the plastic model business like Avis, Mikro-Mir, Riich Models, Unimodel, Roden, ICM, Masterbox, ACE, Miniart and many others. This is the most difficult situation they ever had to deal with. Ukraine needs the worlds help, they are fighting for their lives and sovereignty.
"

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kraftiekortie
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26 Feb 2022, 3:39 pm

Ukraine has a vast history and excellent art.

So does Russia.

It’s a pity Putin forgets this when he’s doing his medieval thing.

kitesandtrainsandcats
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26 Feb 2022, 8:52 pm

If we humans are confused you know the non-human minds are confused for sure,
"
People are fleeing Ukraine with their pets as Russia's invasion continues
Talia Lakritz
Feb 25, 2022, 1:54 PM
"
https://www.insider.com/ukraine-russia- ... ets-2022-2

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shlaifu
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26 Feb 2022, 9:55 pm

:evil:

kraftiekortie wrote:

Ukraine has a vast history and excellent art.

So does Russia.

It’s a pity Putin forgets this when he’s doing his medieval thing.

as far as I know, there's this ethno-nationalist philosopher, Alexander Dugin, who basically told the Russian people for two decades now that Ukraine - and the other ex-soviet nations- are ethnically Russian, and it is Russia's destiny to re-unite and rise again.
That makes highlighting seperate cultural achievements tricky, because in this narrative, it all belongs together and is all one Russian history. (and Dugin isn't even totally wrong in this respect, it's just that... the nations split up through historic contingency and it looks like Ukraine likes it that way).

Dugin's nationalist philosophy is painting a picture of a past that's only sprinkled with historic facts, and a future that looks as bright for Russia as it sounds awful for neighbouring countries. He's essentially providing the story in which Russia is doing good by invading other countries - like Fox News did for the US and the invasion of Iraq. A moral story that makes invasion an heroic act.

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txfz1
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26 Feb 2022, 11:07 pm

While the democrats were impeaching OMB, he gave Ukraine quarter-bill military aid, Javelins I think. Potus Biden meets with Putin and immediately freezes this aid. Biden tells China that Putin is building troops at the Ukraine border, China tells Putin what US intel they have on him. Putin invades Ukraine. Biden imposes sanctions, Russia can't license their art. Kiev gets bombarded.

Biden 2019, "Just imagine what Putin will do if Trump is reelected."

Does that help clear it up?

kitesandtrainsandcats
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26 Feb 2022, 11:28 pm

txfz1 wrote:

Potus Biden meets with Putin and immediately freezes this aid.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/1 ... ons-495169

Quote:

White House freezes Ukraine military package that includes lethal weapons
Officials prepped $100 million worth of arms as Russia massed troops on the border, then put it on pause as the Biden-Putin summit approached.
By BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN and PAUL MCLEARY
06/18/2021 01:00 PM EDT
Updated: 06/18/2021 06:53 PM EDT
The Biden White House has temporarily halted a military aid package to Ukraine that would include lethal weapons, a plan originally made in response to aggressive Russian troop movements along Ukraine’s border this spring.
The aid package would be worth up to $100 million, according to four people familiar with internal deliberations.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/nation ... i-rcna8421

Quote:

Despite appeals from Ukraine, Biden admin holds back additional military aid to Kyiv amid diplomatic push
Dec. 11, 2021, 12:20 AM UTC / Updated Dec. 11, 2021, 2:32 AM UTC
By Courtney Kube and Dan De Luce
The Biden administration prepared a $200 million package of additional military assistance for Ukraine in recent weeks but held off on delivering the aid despite appeals from Kyiv and some lawmakers, according to three people familiar with the issue.
A source familiar with the matter, however, said there are a number of other options on the table for further assistance to Ukraine, including a much larger package of aid that would be approved in the event of further incursion by Russia.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/us/p ... raine.html

Quote:

U.S. Officials Repeatedly Urged China to Help Avert War in Ukraine
By Edward Wong Feb. 25, 2022 WASHINGTON — Over three months, senior Biden administration officials held half a dozen urgent meetings with top Chinese officials in which the Americans presented intelligence showing Russia’s troop buildup around Ukraine and beseeched the Chinese to tell Russia not to invade, according to U.S. officials.
Each time, the Chinese officials, including the foreign minister and the ambassador to the United States, rebuffed the Americans, saying they did not think an invasion was in the works. After one diplomatic exchange in December, U.S. officials got intelligence showing Beijing had shared the information with Moscow, telling the Russians that the United States was trying to sow discord — and that China would not try to impede Russian plans and actions, the officials said.

The previously unreported talks between American and Chinese officials show how the Biden administration tried to use intelligence findings and diplomacy to persuade a superpower it views as a growing adversary to stop the invasion of Ukraine, and how that nation, led by President Xi Jinping, persistently sided with Russia even as the evidence of Moscow’s plans for a military offensive grew over the winter.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/06/78534973 ... r-scrutiny

Quote:

December 6, 2019 7:42 PM ET Democrats say the president tried to coerce an ally to help him take down a political opponent. Republicans argue it's a routine use of presidential power.
Interviews with current and former officials show how the Trump administration's hold-up of aid to Ukraine was irregular and likely violated U.S. law, and has far-reaching consequences at home and overseas.

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Pepe
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26 Feb 2022, 11:34 pm

magz wrote:

Angnix wrote:

Well, what I heard on the radio was Trump was siding with Russia on this Ukraine business... But one of my rightist relatives posted on her timeline "Russia's attacking, we need Trump back!" Then I got confused by her explanation on how Trumps friendship with Putin prevented war "better friends than enemies"

Can someone clarify??? I am so confused by both sides right now idk...

In the meantime yes, the cost of everything is rising yes people aren't working, the right sights socialistic handouts, left says living wage...

I really... Really getting confused as someone kinda politically in the middle...

Russia is attacking - way away from you.
We could go all what if Trump but it's meaningless. Trump congratulated Putin on his move, that's all we know about him on this.

From the point of view of an American civilian, it's just another war on some other continent. From the local point of view - tragic as hell.
As with all the wars in the last 140 years.

Very odd.
I am confused as to what advantage trump would get from praising pootin.
Make Ammuuuurains happy that he wouldn't pull them into an unwanted war if he was re-elected?
I have seen nothing to explain this odd behaviour, and I watch a lot of news reports/assessments.

Curious.

Edit:
On the news just now:
Trump changed his story.
Now he is saying that pootin isn't smart, the west is dumb.
Exactly what I said yesterday.
He must be reading my posts. :mrgreen:

Last edited by Pepe on 26 Feb 2022, 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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26 Feb 2022, 11:40 pm

ironpony wrote:

Covid and a weak west.
Having most of Europe by the balls in terms of supplying fossil fuels. (Shame on you Germany and the turtle.)
A weak POTUS.
Long term goal to reform the Soviet empire.
Because he can.

Pepe
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26 Feb 2022, 11:51 pm

ironpony wrote:

r00tb33r wrote:

ironpony wrote:

For kicks?
Not exactly.
For his inflated ego.

And yes, NATO's encroachment was a serious issue that was interfering with his reunification of the russian empire plans down the track.
The Baltic States in particular have a lot to fear from this psychopath.

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