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The Black Book of Communism

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Pepe
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02 Nov 2022, 3:42 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
The extremes of communism and fascism are two different heads of the same monster.


But communism wins by a mile when you consider the body count of Stalin and Mao. :thumright:

Quote:
Who Killed More? Mao, Stalin, or Hitler?




Regardless, they both killed vast numbers of people. The lesser body count of fascism doesn't make it somehow better of less guilty than communism.


The concept of "guilt" has nothing to do with my comments/intent.
You are missing the point. 8)



Pepe
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02 Nov 2022, 3:49 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
The extremes of communism and fascism are two different heads of the same monster.


But communism wins by a mile when you consider the body count of Stalin and Mao. :thumright:

Quote:
Who Killed More? Mao, Stalin, or Hitler?




Regardless, they both killed vast numbers of people. The lesser body count of fascism doesn't make it somehow better of less guilty than communism.


My point was to shine a light on communist atrocities, not to make a comparison.
Some ppl are ignorant about that part of history.


I think most are aware of Stalin's and Mao's death count.


You would be surprised how many young kids don't because it is an inconvenient Truth that some would prefer to be forgotten.



Pepe
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02 Nov 2022, 3:52 am

cyberdad wrote:
Deaths had little to do with communism.


Don't tell me...
Tell that to "Stéphane Courtois, Andrzej Paczkowski, Nicolas Werth, Jean-Louis Margolin, and several other European academics".



Pepe
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02 Nov 2022, 3:55 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
In terms of pure evilness, rather than body count, of said ideologies, which is worse?


This is a different context than what I had used originally.
I.E. "Apples and Oranges."



Pepe
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02 Nov 2022, 3:59 am

cyberdad wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
In terms of pure evilness, rather than body count, of said ideologies, which is worse?


Yes I think it's pretty hard to top nazism in terms of evil.


"You are boxing at shadows."
What you said is not what this thread is about, but thank you for your comment. 8)



ToughDiamond
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02 Nov 2022, 11:11 am

cyberdad wrote:

If you are talking numbers of dead then communism certainly is up there.

But when you dig a little deeper then I tend find whether it be Ceaucescu, Castro, The Kims of North Korea, China or Russia, the motivation is always authoritarianism, control and self-interest at the expense of the populace who don't provide obedience. Deaths had little to do with communism.

I think that's about right. There's an anarchist saying, "in authority there is always hate." I don't agree with it 100%, but I see a lot of truth in it.

It seems unlikely that communism as such has ever been tried on a national scale. Communism is a broad church, but I've not seen anything in its ideology that embraces mass murder as a way of life. A more accurate title for the book might be "the black book of certain nations that some people saw as communist." But that wouldn't be very crisp and zingy, and if the book's purpose was to brainwash or persuade people to hate the ideology of communism, it would rather defeat that.



Minder
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02 Nov 2022, 11:12 am

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I remember you being a communist apologist at one time.
(Hitler Vs Stalin)
Don't you remember our conversation?


If you are talking numbers of dead then communism certainly is up there.

But when you dig a little deeper then I tend find whether it be Ceaucescu, Castro, The Kims of North Korea, China or Russia, the motivation is always authoritarianism, control and self-interest at the expense of the populace who don't provide obedience. Deaths had little to do with communism.

In contrast, German, Croatian and Ukrainian Nazism, the multiple mullions of murders were committed with a particular atrocious zeal, ferocity and contempt of their victims (substantial number women and children) by subordinates (whether it be regular infantry, death squads or organised militia) who were acting directly upon racist propaganda.

Obviously if you were not one of the "chosen race" then it's a no-brainer which regime they would choose to live under.


Yeah, I would say that one of the key differences is that in fascism, the cruelty is the point. Communist regimes tend to be very cruel (and given how nationalistic/militaristic many of them became, could be difficult to distinguish from fascism), but that's more of a side-effect. Granted, if you were brutalized to death, I doubt you'd particularly care if it was as a side-effect or the point.

The other difference is that communists are obsessed with economics. Fascists don't care, and can whiplash from private to public ownership, depending on the whims of the leader. Italian fascism, for instance, started off with increased privatization, but by the '30s had the second-highest level of state ownership in the world (second only to the USSR). The Nazis, AFAIK, largely encouraged privatization (though the State was always watching, and had the power to change this if they so decided).



blitzkrieg
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25 Nov 2022, 10:23 pm

Communism reminds me more nowadays of the clowns on Twitter from western countries who don't know anything about communism & who claim to be communists, based on perhaps a cursory glance at some communist texts.

It's just sad that these people exist.



cyberdad
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25 Nov 2022, 10:49 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
It's just sad that these people exist.


except communists don't get elected to anything. It's fringe.

Fascist leaders still get elected as presidents or prime ministers of developed countries
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/far- ... e-minister

She is on the record of being proud of fascism. The mind virus is spreading.



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25 Nov 2022, 10:52 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
Communism reminds me more nowadays of the clowns on Twitter from western countries who don't know anything about communism & who claim to be communists, based on perhaps a cursory glance at some communist texts.

It's just sad that these people exist.



They're called tankies or 'useful idiots'. I can't stand these people either.

You get a disturbingly large number of them among young people these days. I guess that the real communists figured young people are the easiest to manipulate and turn against their own society.

It reminds me of that horror movie Children of the Corn...



cyberdad
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25 Nov 2022, 10:56 pm

"Commies" are just boogymen that republican parents tell their children about as bedtime stories :lol:



DeathFlowerKing
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25 Nov 2022, 11:12 pm

cyberdad wrote:
"Commies" are just boogymen that republican parents tell their children about as bedtime stories :lol:



Back in the 1950's when McCarthy was a threat to the US much like Trump is today he wasn't entirely wrong about the dangers that communism posed to the US. The problem was McCarthy himself exaggerated the very real dangers of communism by accusing anybody he saw as a threat to his political power as being a commie.

But the real communists still wanted our country destroyed. Don't act like they wouldnt have nuked the hell out of us if they felt they could.



cyberdad
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25 Nov 2022, 11:37 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
Back in the 1950's when McCarthy was a threat to the US much like Trump is today he wasn't entirely wrong about the dangers that communism posed to the US. The problem was McCarthy himself exaggerated the very real dangers of communism by accusing anybody he saw as a threat to his political power as being a commie.

But the real communists still wanted our country destroyed. Don't act like they wouldnt have nuked the hell out of us if they felt they could.


Let's not kid ourselves. No sane person would throw support for the Soviet Union or China given their history for human rights violations. People who actually spied for the USSR were motivated by greed not because of communism.

Both Hoover/FBI and McCarthy used the "red terror" as a ruse to lock up any dissident voice in American society that were advocates for social justice or civil rights in the US. Many US citizens had to flee the US during this time for simply questioning the government.



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25 Nov 2022, 11:37 pm

DeathFlowerKing wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
"Commies" are just boogymen that republican parents tell their children about as bedtime stories :lol:



Back in the 1950's when McCarthy was a threat to the US much like Trump is today he wasn't entirely wrong about the dangers that communism posed to the US. The problem was McCarthy himself exaggerated the very real dangers of communism by accusing anybody he saw as a threat to his political power as being a commie.

But the real communists still wanted our country destroyed. Don't act like they wouldnt have nuked the hell out of us if they felt they could.


Amen to that. Those dirty commies! :skull:



DeathFlowerKing
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25 Nov 2022, 11:41 pm

cyberdad wrote:
DeathFlowerKing wrote:
Back in the 1950's when McCarthy was a threat to the US much like Trump is today he wasn't entirely wrong about the dangers that communism posed to the US. The problem was McCarthy himself exaggerated the very real dangers of communism by accusing anybody he saw as a threat to his political power as being a commie.

But the real communists still wanted our country destroyed. Don't act like they wouldnt have nuked the hell out of us if they felt they could.


Let's not kid ourselves. No sane person would throw support for the Soviet Union or China given their history for human rights violations. People who actually spied for the USSR were motivated by greed not because of communism.

Both Hoover/FBI and McCarthy used the "red terror" as a ruse to lock up any dissident voice in American society that were advocates for social justice or civil rights in the US. Many US citizens had to flee the US during this time for simply questioning the government.


Kinda like when Germany in the 1930's was torn between Communism and Nazi Fascism? :wink:

And human greed is precisely why most communist societies fail.



cyberdad
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26 Nov 2022, 4:23 am

DeathFlowerKing wrote:

Kinda like when Germany in the 1930's was torn between Communism and Nazi Fascism? :wink:

And human greed is precisely why most communist societies fail.


My point is debating communism is like debating devil worship or wicca. All of these beliefs are largely extinct in the western world except in the basements of certain bored people and pose zero threat to society.