what's the reason some wealthy people oppose democracy?

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Nailed it.

Social democracies aren't socialist.
The different Marxist dictatorships have attempted this but without democracy they can't actually succeed. Even as a hypothetical, a socialist society that fails at maintaining some form of democratic process would end up no longer socialist.

Historically those dictatorships tended to have some democratic measures, but never with enough teeth to actually exert control. Democratic centralism isn't exactly democratic and less formal methods aren't institutionalized so there's no guarantee of achieving any sort of results. Representatives might have faced elections over their approval (as opposed to between candidates) but if they're all selected by the party it's easy to see that as providing no control.

Much like there's never been a fully capitalist society, there's never been a large scale socialist society. In real life there isn't a place on earth that doesn't operate with some mix of mercantilist, capitalist and socialist ideas.

a fully capitalist dystopia is a nightmare.

^Think Oliver Twist.

which is precisely what many among our overlords want us to return to, "the natural order of things" [edmund burke] where the strong ride astride the weak.

"What an ungrateful commie, he should be thankful he got any gruel at all. Please sir may I have some more indeed. Bootstraps boy, there's no such thing as a free lunch and other assorted clichés. Praise be the invisible hand." - L0lbertarian l0lgic

it turns out that there are none so tender, as those who themselves have been skinned. the comfortable/complacent/haughty types have not been skinned.

Have you truly never heard of a cooperative?

One kind of cooperative (for example) is a member-owned financial institution (i.e., Credit Union) formed to meet the members' social, economic, and cultural needs.  Another form is the "Health-Food Co-op", wherein each member owns a share of the store that sells artisanal foods, organic fruits and grains, and other locally-produced items.

Yes I have heard of cooperatives. There is a village near my town where all the men have a fishing cooperative and the women produce artisans foods. Isn"t cooperative another form of corporation? What is really the difference, except it has it's own rules. Nevertheless, I meant the entire economy, not specific entities within that economy.

Again, the only qualification that defines Socialism is when the workers own and control the means of production.  No government involvement is necessary.

Cooperatives are Socialist.

Yes they are. But they operate within e capitalist economy. The economic system is still capitalism.

Does this include the cooperatives in Havana, Cuba?  How about tribal cooperatives that exist outside of capitalist countries?

Do you really know so little about economics that you believe your understanding is all there is?

Democracy isn’t all what it’s cracked up to be. Democracy—sounds great, let the majority rule. The down problem is that appeal is to majority doesn’t work with logic. And if something doesn’t stand the test of reason, it won’t stand the test of reality. I’m not saying democracy can’t be made to work. But making something work doesn’t result in the best outcomes for all people.

Granting everyone the right to be HEARD is different because you can protect the rights and interests of all individuals as opposed to having to split law and justice between a majority and minorities and creating victim classes. With the exception of amendments regarding slavery and racial civil rights, the US constitution does not support stratifying society into classes and granting special rights to minorities. Everyone has the right and ability to achieve as much or as little as they reasonably desire with equal understanding that no person is under the obligation to secure the success of anyone else. If you want to be a famous rapper with two cribs and 15 cars, you are welcome to try, but you cannot force anyone to love you enough to hand over that kind of lifestyle. It takes work.

You are free in a republic to elect authorities to represent your interests and protect your rights. You can answer polls, create focus groups, write letters or whatever it is they do now, hold politicians accountable at the ballot box, and even run for office yourself. You can serve on a jury when you get called up. There are all kinds of ways a single person in a republic can bring the entire system to its knees and make change happen. This ensures everyone is heard and that policies are informed by voters.

You won’t win everything. But at least in a republic policy making isn’t a zero sum game. Democracies are mob rule. Majority wins, minorities lose, and policy is a matter of popular whim in a zero sum game.

The USA isn’t EXACTLY a republic in reality because policy is made based largely on power brokering rather than the best interests of all individual constituents. There is a degree of rule-by-minority that happens, too, neither of which was ever intended by either a republic or a democracy. Realities of democracies are that majorities are coerced or forced into supporting a minority view. Republics like the US when they are functional can sidestep a lot of this when populations can voice their interests without fear since they are untouchable by anyone outside their jurisdiction. Federal law in the USA often circumvents the mutual interests of the American people, however, and many of us feel alienated by the government.

I never claimed I know all about economies. For the cooperatives in Cuba all I need to know is that they operate in a failed economy. The tribal economies you mention I do not think they have something to teach us about modern complex economies.

i am frustrated because working class people here can't have the nice things that working class people in the bulk of the rest of the west take for granted.

Never mind about oppressing the worker population. We have to oppress the bird population. Do your part of to win the war on birds • • • −