Religion - Help Me Understand

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I won't reply to all the questions raised here, but do suggest checking out the work of Jonathan Pageau on Youtube. His main topic is symbolism and how it underlies our understanding of the world. He is a traditional (Orthodox) Christian. He doesn't offer intellectual arguments but starts from the human experience. We can't stand outside it, however much we want to. You might find something useful in his way of looking at things. I can't think of one particular video that would be the perfect place to start. Perhaps an introductory type interview. Hope this helps.

I'm familiar with him. He's good.

It is also easy to think of and notice religious people who aren't living out their religious principles. We tend to miss the greater quantity who are living out those principles

dunno if this contributes at all, but the moment where I essentially became an atheist was after intense prayer for reasonable wishes to be fulfilled. I was like "Wait, this God guy never answers my prayers! I've personally repented, prayed to several saints and The Man Himself, and nothing ever comes of it! On the off chance it does, it could easily be written off as a coincidence, too...Is this guy even real? Is any of this real?"

Apologies for jumping into this old thread, but I'm also searching for answers. I was raised in a Southern Baptist family, but like you, I've had doubts and struggles with the concept of faith. It's tough for logical minds like ours, right?

how I think of it is: if there are any gods, humans created them. What I mean is that before humanity, there was obviously no concept of a god, and history/nature has not changed much in its goals (or lack thereof) so it's safe to assume natural processes have always occurred indifferently.

If one chooses to believe in a god or gods, then they must realize that they are what keeps the god existing: without faith, they are nothing, because no one would know about them and then they wouldn't exist, and so on. Obviously this doesn't matter for giant faiths like the Great And Terrible Christianity, but it lets one exert control over their belief.

Another thing to keep in mind is that religions are very, very often *products of their time.* Take homosexuality. It has been demonized and normalized in a cycle throughout all human history. In our modern age we have the science to prove it is natural and normal, but hardcore ignoramuses will assert that their 3,500 year old book is definitely still 200% relevant today (that's not to say it has no moral value, but it's a very strange and self-contradicting piece of fiction). The only "religions" that are still relevant to the modern age are extremely vague ones without a real set of controlling laws and rules and stories, like Shintoism. "But Shinto has nothing to do with modern things like cars and stuff!" True, but that is exactly why it 'makes sense.' Only when not trying to exert control over something else can something be used forever. Shinto separates humanity from the sacred, thus it is not inflammatory and remains after about 2,500 years, meanwhile the Great And Terrible Bible is almost always under fire for being full of nonsense.

I personally am an atheist, because I recognize that the world simply does not care about me, and that's not self-pity or loathing or anything, it's the truth. Life has no other purpose but to survive. I also do not want to bow down to any higher being, if one were to exist. Superiority complex? Maybe. But this lack of faith is what keeps me sane, contrasting against the desperate unanswered pleas to a nonexistent god.

I hope my tangent is coherent enough for you

I was raised a fundamentalist Christian. Ever since I was a young child, I had issues with my faith. I'm an atheist due to the lack of evidence and the existence of suffering. Having read the Bible in its entirety, I wouldn't worship that God even if it turned out that he was real. *shudders*

I find my former religion abhorrent because it encouraged misogyny and homophobia and was staunchly anti-science - taking most of the Bible literally and denying the overwhelming evidence for evolution.

I think having a logical mind is a good thing.

There's always room for doubt. None of us want to feel we've been lied to or deceived.

As to being logical minds, it all depends on what passes for logic. If God is to be understood as the greatest logically possible Supreme Being, i.e. if any human mind can imagine at least one world or universe in which God exists, then one must logically conclude that God exists. The short explanation is that the greatest logically possible Supreme Being in any logically possible world couldn't possibly exist only within the human imagination. Further, such a Being must be infinite since nothing greater than infinity can be conceived within the human mind. And that means if a human can imagine at least one logically possible world in which God exists, then because of God's infinite attributes he must exist in all possible worlds. The world we live in is certainly possible--it exists. And therefore God exists.

I would go even further and say that God doesn't merely subjectively exist. I'd say God objectively exists and the entire universe is evidence. If you form all of your beliefs around a strict, hard empiricist view of the world, you're not going to comprehend that. But hard empiricism is based on the irrational idea that the observable universe is the only possible universe that can exist. Empiricism cannot account for holding itself to a lower standard than everything else--the Scientific Method itself is subjective and unable to rationally prove itself by its own methods (question-begging).

I agree up to a point. I think it's very good for making reliable maps of things so that we can figure out what to do when those things are causing us harm, and what to do when we'd like to get some benefit from those things. Where would diabetics be for example without the rational science that mapped out what diabetes is and led to life-saving interventions?

But I also think it's possible to become too logical, to ignore the value of understanding emotions, artistic appreciation, love, and fun. Of course it's true that science has made some inroads into mapping those things, but it's still probably true that for example happiness tends to come as an unexpected by-product of life rather than being entirely controllable by the reasoned pursuit of it (though that's not to say that reasoned pursuit of happiness is by any means doomed to complete failure). I've heard of people who are so logical that they dismiss compassion and empathy as a waste of time. And rational utilitarianism, though remarkably good as a touchstone for making moral decisions in everyday life, is well known to break down when presented with extreme cases, because morality itself is at least partly an emotional thing.

When I was in my 20s I was getting almost as thoroughly logical as that. Luckily a counsellor raised the question "where are the feelings in what you're telling me?" Also luckily, I was interested in exploring that, and when I did I began to develop a healthier regard for emotions. I'm sure my life has been happier as a result. It's probably my ASD that keeps pushing me towards logic, but I don't think it'll ever quite win.
[Continued in my next post - Cloudflare won't let me post it in one go]

Last edited by ToughDiamond on 19 May 2023, 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

What does it have to do with religion? The answer is probably quite complex. I've mentioned human emotions, compassion and happiness, and it seems fairly clear to me that they exist and are a force to be reckoned with, but I've never yet seen hide nor hair of a soul, or strong tangible evidence of a deity, or supernatural beings of any kind. Critical thinking and scientific inquiry has detected many claims and dishonest tricks done by earthly "spiritual" authorities. That's one reason why I think it's important not to completely reject rationality when looking into the question of whether or not any religion is telling us the truth. I think it's unwise to leave skepticism and rationality at the door when dealing with proponents of religion, just as it is when dealing with marketers and politicians.

This link provides the views of a few people on the matter of being "too logical":
https://www.quora.com/Is-there-such-a-t ... oo-logical

I was raised in a Southern Baptist family, but like you, I've had doubts and struggles with the concept of faith. It's tough for logical minds like ours, right? Faith can't be taken apart and understood like a machine. Unlike love, which has tangible signs, faith seems intangible.I understand your frustrations with "Godly" individuals who don't live up to their professed beliefs. It's disheartening. However, I recently came across the First Church Love website (https://firstchurchlove.com) during my web surfing. It offers a different perspective on spirituality, emphasizing a personal connection with God outside of organized religion. It might be worth exploring.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/twain/letearth.htm

https://www.verywellmind.com/freudian-theory-2795845

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6oqfg2g3fs

^
I can see the attraction of using an imaginary father figure to replace the actual caregiver. I suppose religious people never have to come to terms with the idea that they're without a caregiver. But I think a bigger attraction is not having to quite come to terms with human mortality.

To me it's just nonsense, so much so that it's hard for me to imagine how and why people believe in god(s) or in any other supernatural notions. Or in astrology, psychics, and so on. They are stories made up by humans, that's all. They don't explain any of the actual mysteries that humans are not capable of understanding any more than any fictional story does. Literary stories and religious texts both contain useful wisdom as well as harmful views. They can be worthwhile as philosophical texts for thought, and to offer solace, so they are not without merit. But the supernatural stuff is not actually true.

Over the course of human existence there have been many more, a few thousand at least, gods that people believed in at the time but whom no one believes in today. How are any of these gods different from the god(s) people still believe in? They aren't.

^ this is one of the main points about religion that got me to question all of it... how can there be 5 "main" "correct paths", and why are the 3 "similar" paths in that group full of distinct sects, and also constantly at war with one another? "Something is very wrong with this picture..."