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Sopho
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14 Aug 2007, 11:11 am

Ragtime wrote:
Sopho wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
No, no, you just claimed that I can't know God exists -- when you're on the outside of my relationship with God -- so naturally, I asked you to back up your claim. So go on, is it your opinion that I can't know God, or is it a fact?

You can't know the Christian god exists, because that god supposedly affects everyone. Not just you. If it did exist, I'd be going to Hell. You can't know that something of that nature exists. If you really do think that, then you need to go and see a psychiatrist.


It's beyond God's infinite power to make me know He's Him?
What?
You're assuming this god has infinite power. You can know there's a god in your head, an imaginary god, whatever else. But you can't know this god has any affect over me. And a Christian god would have.



gwenevyn
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14 Aug 2007, 11:14 am

Ragtime wrote:
Sopho wrote:
I doubt he does. And you don't know this god exists. You just feel it/believe it does. That's different to actually knowing that it does.


How do you know?


I don't know what Soph would say (ok, now I do :P ), but a big bit of compelling evidence to the contrary, for me, is the fact that many people claim to have the same level of conviction that you have, about contradictory revelations. Furthermore we know that people have claimed to have such convictions regarding matters that are verifiably false by any sane standard. Obviously it stands to reason that we cannot accept someone's feelings as a legitimate piece of evidence for the existence of anything outside the individual.



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14 Aug 2007, 11:17 am

gwenevyn wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sopho wrote:
I doubt he does. And you don't know this god exists. You just feel it/believe it does. That's different to actually knowing that it does.


How do you know?


I don't know what Soph would say (ok, now I do :P ), but a big bit of compelling evidence to the contrary, for me, is the fact that many people claim to have the same level of conviction that you have, about contradictory revelations. Furthermore we know that people have claimed to have such convictions regarding matters that are verifiably false by any sane standard. Obviously it stands to reason that we cannot accept someone's feelings as a legitimate piece of evidence for the existence of anything outside the individual.


Thank you, but that's not addressing the question of how Sopho knows that I don't know God.


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calandale
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14 Aug 2007, 11:19 am

A does not necessarily imply that Not A is false,
in all logical systems.



Sopho
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14 Aug 2007, 11:22 am

Ragtime wrote:
gwenevyn wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sopho wrote:
I doubt he does. And you don't know this god exists. You just feel it/believe it does. That's different to actually knowing that it does.


How do you know?


I don't know what Soph would say (ok, now I do :P ), but a big bit of compelling evidence to the contrary, for me, is the fact that many people claim to have the same level of conviction that you have, about contradictory revelations. Furthermore we know that people have claimed to have such convictions regarding matters that are verifiably false by any sane standard. Obviously it stands to reason that we cannot accept someone's feelings as a legitimate piece of evidence for the existence of anything outside the individual.


Thank you, but that's not addressing the question of how Sopho knows that I don't know God.

Because for it to be a Christian god, it would take more than a relationship with you and only you. All you claim to know is that YOU have a relationship with god. So all you can know is that. That doesn't prove that it's your Christian god though. You can't know that it has any power or control over anyone else but you.



gwenevyn
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14 Aug 2007, 11:31 am

Sopho wrote:
Ragtime wrote:

Thank you, but that's not addressing the question of how Sopho knows that I don't know God.

Because for it to be a Christian god, it would take more than a relationship with you and only you. All you claim to know is that YOU have a relationship with god. So all you can know is that. That doesn't prove that it's your Christian god though. You can't know that it has any power or control over anyone else but you.


Exactly.

R., when we're speaking of personal conviction, the only bit of evidence in your favor is the fact that you claim it is so. Whereas I am sure we can all think of plenty of evidence leaning toward the conclusion that feelings of having been touched by the divine do not reliably reflect what most people would term objective reality.



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14 Aug 2007, 11:33 am

calandale wrote:
A does not necessarily imply that Not A is false,
in all logical systems.


What about the law of excluded middle? God either exists or He does not.


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calandale
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14 Aug 2007, 11:34 am

Wait a minute. This is raggy's subjective God.
I think that the ONLY way that you can feasibly
deny it, is to deny either his existence, or that
he knows his own thoughts better than you do.

This is EXACTLY the same issue as claiming that
someone else is able to change their sexuality or
not.



Sopho
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14 Aug 2007, 11:36 am

calandale wrote:
Wait a minute. This is raggy's subjective God.
I think that the ONLY way that you can feasibly
deny it, is to deny either his existence, or that
he knows his own thoughts better than you do.

This is EXACTLY the same issue as claiming that
someone else is able to change their sexuality or
not.

I'm not denying some 'god' exists in his head. Whether it's a figment of his imagination, or he is actually as crazy as he seems, I don't know. But what he can't know, is the existence of a god which requires more than just a relationship with him. A Christian god isn't just defined by having a relationship with one person - it would affect every single person on the planet. And he can't know that this 'god' he 'knows' exists, has that.



gwenevyn
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14 Aug 2007, 11:43 am

calandale wrote:
Wait a minute. This is raggy's subjective God.
I think that the ONLY way that you can feasibly
deny it, is to deny either his existence, or that
he knows his own thoughts better than you do.

This is EXACTLY the same issue as claiming that
someone else is able to change their sexuality or
not.


Similar in ways, but not the same.

I wouldn't contest Ragtime's belief that he is being convicted by the Holy Spirit.

So what does it mean "to know" something?

If knowledge merely consists of personal consent to believe in something subjectively experienced, then sure, Ragtime knows God.

But if we take knowledge in the sense of our best determination of truth through reason, our best guess in this limited context would be that--whether Ragtime is truly in contact with God or not--his feelings on the issue are not sufficient evidence.



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14 Aug 2007, 11:44 am

Sopho wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
gwenevyn wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Sopho wrote:
I doubt he does. And you don't know this god exists. You just feel it/believe it does. That's different to actually knowing that it does.


How do you know?


I don't know what Soph would say (ok, now I do :P ), but a big bit of compelling evidence to the contrary, for me, is the fact that many people claim to have the same level of conviction that you have, about contradictory revelations. Furthermore we know that people have claimed to have such convictions regarding matters that are verifiably false by any sane standard. Obviously it stands to reason that we cannot accept someone's feelings as a legitimate piece of evidence for the existence of anything outside the individual.


Thank you, but that's not addressing the question of how Sopho knows that I don't know God.

Because for it to be a Christian god, it would take more than a relationship with you and only you.

It's not with only me. Several people I know personally claim to know the same God, and visibly act out the same spiritual doctrines in their lives.
Sopho wrote:
All you claim to know is that YOU have a relationship with god.

That's not all I claim to know. It's just one of my claims.
Sopho wrote:
So all you can know is that.

Nope, wrong again.
Sopho wrote:
That doesn't prove that it's your Christian god though. You can't know that it has any power or control over anyone else but you.

You can't know that. My point is that you can't know that God can't reveal Himself to me as being the God of the Bible. While I'm reading my Bible, and God's confirming verses I'm reading by showing me in my heart truths about those verses, He also shows me that He is the God in the Bible. Like He appeared to others in Scripture saying, "I am the God of your father Abraham", He introduces Himself to me in an epistomological way, making me know it.

I take you at your word that you don't know God.
Why can't you take me at my word that I do?


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Ragtime
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14 Aug 2007, 11:47 am

gwenevyn wrote:
Sopho wrote:
Ragtime wrote:

Thank you, but that's not addressing the question of how Sopho knows that I don't know God.

Because for it to be a Christian god, it would take more than a relationship with you and only you. All you claim to know is that YOU have a relationship with god. So all you can know is that. That doesn't prove that it's your Christian god though. You can't know that it has any power or control over anyone else but you.


Exactly.

R., when we're speaking of personal conviction, the only bit of evidence in your favor is the fact that you claim it is so. Whereas I am sure we can all think of plenty of evidence leaning toward the conclusion that feelings of having been touched by the divine do not reliably reflect what most people would term objective reality.


Again, you're missing the point and nature of my assertion.


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gwenevyn
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14 Aug 2007, 11:51 am

Ragtime wrote:
It's not with only me. Several people I know personally claim to know the same God, and visibly act out the same spiritual doctrines in their lives.


And a lot of people claim to know other gods or spiritual matters.

That's just part of why belief itself cannot rationally be submitted as evidence for the subject of that belief.


Ragtime wrote:
I take you at your word that you don't know God.
Why can't you take me at my word that I do?


Because your belief in her experience does not necessitate the suspension of your beliefs. Whereas, for her to acknowledge your experience as "truth" would contradict her beliefs.



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14 Aug 2007, 11:53 am

Ragtime wrote:
Again, you're missing the point and nature of my assertion.


I highly doubt it. I think it's more likely that you're not reading thoroughly what I've written.

But if you really think I'm not understanding the nature of your assertion, try a rephrase. :)



Ragtime
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14 Aug 2007, 11:53 am

Sopho wrote:
calandale wrote:
Wait a minute. This is raggy's subjective God.
I think that the ONLY way that you can feasibly
deny it, is to deny either his existence, or that
he knows his own thoughts better than you do.

This is EXACTLY the same issue as claiming that
someone else is able to change their sexuality or
not.

I'm not denying some 'god' exists in his head. Whether it's a figment of his imagination, or he is actually as crazy as he seems, I don't know. But what he can't know, is the existence of a god which requires more than just a relationship with him.

Why is my personal belief in and relationship with God so important to you?
Sopho wrote:
A Christian god isn't just defined by having a relationship with one person - it would affect every single person on the planet. And he can't know that this 'god' he 'knows' exists, has that.

The universal inability to know something for certain, or know that one knows it, as dealt with in the field of epistomology, is a true reflection of human limits -- our brains are able to be fooled quite easily. But God is not human, nor does he possess such limits. And reason says that a metaphysical human soul would have different properties than a physical human brain, and not have the same physical limitations on such things as knowledge.


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calandale
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14 Aug 2007, 12:02 pm

Ragtime wrote:
calandale wrote:
A does not necessarily imply that Not A is false,
in all logical systems.


What about the law of excluded middle? God either exists or He does not.


Only a law in CERTAIN logics. Indeed, ones which
don't adequately describe reality, for some fields.

Do you really believe that God is bounded by one
set of man's rules?