Jehovah's Witnesses and child discipline

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I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I can tell you that the shaming and guilt tripping is NOT how we are taught to train our children.

If you want to know what we are taught the information is freely available on the JW.org website. For parenting advice look here: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/family/raising-children/
You especially might want to look under the heading "Discipline".

Twilight Princess, it sounds like you had a rough childhood and I'm so sorry those things happened to you. At one time spankings where considered to be the proper way to discipline your children. This wasn't just JWs, it was the common opinion just about everywhere. That is no longer the case and hasn't been for quite a long time. The Awake magazine for Sept. 8th 1992 starts down the correct path. It mentions "physical discipline" as a last resort and says that it should never be done in anger. It encourages "love and mildness", not "anger and brutality". It makes the point that the word translated "rod of discipline" refers to the rod of a shepherd who raises sheep. It says that in that context the "rod ... suggests loving guidance, not harsh brutality". That article was published over thirty years ago and our views of discipline have only improved since then.

As for the "elder who would throw his kids into a wall", YIKES! That should never have been tolerated. You are right that elders are looked up to. They are supposed to be a model for the congregation. That elder should have been removed from his position and reproved. If his ways didn't change he should have been disfellowshipped. JWs (as a group) have never condoned abuse like that. NEVER!

Now about disfellowshipping, it is as much about protecting the congregation from the bad influence as it is about getting the person to do what is right. If you associate with criminals you will likely start thinking like them and maybe even become one. Someone who is disfellowshipped has done something considered very bad in the bible. But that's not all. Because if you do something the bible considers very bad (for example commit fornication) and you are truly sorry for your actions then you will most likely be reproved, often privately unless many people know of your transgression. You may lose some privileges for a while (such as the ability to comment during the meetings). But you can still freely associate with others in the congregation before and after the meetings and outside the meetings. But if your attitude is not one of repentance or if you do this bad thing many times then you will likely be disfellowshipped. Disfellowshipping is not done trivially.

Some other things to keep in mind about disfellowshipping and reproval:
Disfellowshipping is not permanent. Someone who is disfellowshipped can be "reinstated" after they have proven that they are repentant by stopping the continued sinful action and talking with the elders so that the elders are convinced that their attitude has changed. When it is announced that a person is reinstated there is often a long line of people who will welcome them back joyfully.
Disfellowshipping and reproval can only be done to someone who is baptized. In very rare instances a child may be baptized as young as 8 or 9. But I have NEVER heard of children this young getting disfellowshipped. If they are exceptional enough to be baptized at such a young age then they don't suddenly change and develop an attitude that will get them disfellowshipped. It just doesn't happen.
Most people don't get baptized until at least their mid teens at which point they are well aware of how the disfellowhipping arrangement works and are old enough to make the decision. They also generally know that if they want to leave the congregation they can just stop coming to meetings and they likely won't be disfellowshipped. If they ever change their mind and want to come back they might be disfellowshipped at that point but likely will just be reproved because their wanting to come back to the congregation shows that their thinking is right on the matter and as long as they have stopped doing the bad thing then they are welcomed back (with reproval as the discipline).
Reproval is usually tried before disfellowshipping and is done as discreetly as possible unless the person's transgression is widely known, in which case it will be publicly announced that the person has been reproved (but the reason is never made known, same with disfellowshipping). Reproval involves privileges being taken away, such as the privilege of commenting during meetings.

I grew up as a JW and my experience was definitely different than Twilight Princess' experience. The household I grew up in did indeed have a lot of yelling in it. But I did not see this sort of behavior as a common thing, and especially not from the elders in the congregations (yes I've moved around a lot). I always wondered why I got stuck with the family who yells and why I always had to walk on eggshells around my dad. My dad was very hard to live with. Then, a couple of years ago I realized I am Autistic and more than meet the criteria set in the DSM 5 for Autism level 1. I realized that Autism is genetic and that my dad most assuredly is autistic too. And THAT is why I had to walk on eggshells, so that I didn't trigger an Autistic meltdown from my dad.

As I have gotten to know many families in many different JW congregations I have only found very few that are harsh and yell a lot. Strict? Yes. Harsh? No.

It’s not at all uncommon for 12 or 13 year olds to get baptized, and then when they “sin” and are unrepentant because they know it’s nonsense, they will be disfellowshipped. I was 15 which was also too young to make a fully-informed decision that would have such dire consequences on my adulthood. It’s absurd to hold people to a commitment that they made as a kid, especially when losing one’s family and friends will be the result. It’s cruel and barbaric as is publicly reproving someone. The humiliation of that experience made me feel like I was being raped again.

Many people return just so they won’t lose family, not because they believe. That’s what I did for a time. The elders praised me for my meekness and humility. Ha! They told me that my “sin” was as bad as murder because it was listed in the same scripture as murder - things which God hates. I called the elder that praised me a f*****g moron in my head, so he was receiving no direction from Jehover whatsoever when he decided I was truly repentant.

Fornication is not a crime, unless a person is raping someone. Fornicating does not make one a criminal. I vote, say the Pledge of Allegiance on rare occasions, engage in apostasy so I can help others, and I’m hoping to fornicate again in the future (until then, masturbation is nice); those things don’t make me a criminal, either. I’d donate blood if I could. I’m obviously a rough character who does not deserve to be treated with basic human decency. Disfellowshipping is NOT loving. It’s incredibly hurtful and has driven some to suicide.

As far as physical discipline goes, my experience was NOT common for my area. Most people, even back then, did NOT treat their kids this way although, as I mentioned in my first post, child abuse is more prevalent among those in specific demographics outside of religion. Those specific demographics are the most common ones in “the Truth Lie.” It’s a multi-faceted issue as I talk about elsewhere. Overly harsh discipline of adults and children is promoted in both the Bible and the Watchtower.

Physical discipline should not be used even “as a last resort.” They do speak of the “rod of discipline,” but this scripture seems to be speaking of physical discipline which is not surprising given the other horrific things that are in the Old Testament:

“Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die" (Proverbs 23:13)

Don’t let the Watchtower do the thinking for you. Try to approach the Bible from a neutral stance and draw your own conclusions from there. It should be able to stand on its own (and withstand scrutiny) without the guidance and undue influence of a controlling, centralized religious organization/business corporation. Sometimes I consult educated Bible scholars like Bart Ehrman if I have a question about ancient history, local religions, or literary influences on the Bible.

Hi nomoore, thanks for that alternative perspective. I'm glad to hear that your experience was different from TP's which sounds horrendous. Is it your experience that JW teachings may be interpreted and executed differently in different parts of the world? Or is it pretty homogenous?

I come at this from a position of complete ignorance, I'm not anti-religion particularly but I find it interesting.

I did read some of the articles you linked to. The article on disciplining was interesting because one of the comments was about wanting to understand why a misbehaviour had occurred and the thought processes behind it.

I wonder if that's what the persistent asking "Why?" was about.

One of the things that struck me about the teachings was that children in JW seem to be expected to be more psychologically mature than I would personally expect. I find that my 9 year old often can't articulate the thought processes behind her behaviours. I certainly wouldn't expect a three year old to be able to do so and would think that demanding he did so would obviously be highly distressing for him.

It seems like JW kids are expected to be 'little adults'. Is that fair to say?

Jehovah’s Witnesses have a major problem with child sexual abuse because they often fail to report it do to poor policies. I could see how similar issues could extend to physical abuse as well. Parents who physically abused their kids in my church and others I’d been to were not reported, either. They’d often speak disparagingly about Child Protection Services. Organizations that are not the Watchtower are considered part of “Satan’s system,” so I can sort of see where they’re coming from if I turn my brain off.

This is about the Australian Royal Commission which was investigating specific religions’ handling of child sexual abuse allegations. The last two paragraphs are shocking:

The 2 Witness Rule

The teachings are VERY homogenous throughout the world. The JW.org website is the official website and if you look at the top of the page and click where it says "English" you can see that it is translated into a multitude of languages. Some of the languages are pretty obscure and some of the publications and articles may not be translated into the more obscure languages or may be behind the others a bit. But the core teachings are all there and are all the same.

As for expecting our kids to be "little adults", we do try to teach them to think and analyze their reasons for doing things from a young age. However I agree with you that there isn't really a way a 3 year old could understand their feeling and motivations, much less put it into words. Most kids are still struggling to get a handle on basic communication at that age. It is much more useful at that age to patiently teach them instead of asking for reasons. And modeling proper behavior is even better. Kids that age can understand language much better than a lot of people give them credit for. But expressing themselves at that age is much more difficult for them.

They have a book titled My Book of Bible Stories. It’s geared towards 5-7 year olds, but JW parents are encouraged to read it to even younger kids. There’s a lot of stuff that’s inappropriate for children in it - violence and victim-blaming type of rhetoric. Here’s one story about sexual violence that probably contributed to me blaming myself for my rape as an adult. I’ve spoken to other women who’ve had a similar experience.





https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/bib ... ter-dinah/

In this JW cartoon (~10 minutes), a kid wanting to eat a birthday cupcake is likened to Peter disowning Jesus. The guilt and shame are STRONG in this video:

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/c ... -forgives/

This one is anti-lgbt. A kid is urged to preach to a girl who has two mommies. It’s not what this thread is about, but it’s abhorrent nonetheless. (~2.5 minutes)

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/c ... -marriage/

Their attitude towards physical abuse in marriage with regard to separation and divorce:

Yeah, I wasn’t allowed to have “worldly” friends. My friends HAD to be fellow JWs which can be challenging on multiple levels but especially if there aren’t that many JW kids nearby. Non-JWs are deemed “bad association” (1 Cor. 15:33). They could lead you away from “the Trurh.”

They believe that their religion is the only true one and the only path to eternal life. The organization has trouble with admitting culpability about anything because that could suggest that they don’t have God’s backing. They have to believe they’re the bestest religion ever - that it’s the best life ever. You have to convince yourself of that as a member because it’s a very difficult religion to follow and the expectations are very high, especially for introverts, those who are highly sensitive, or people on the spectrum, but, in their minds, it’s that or death.

People in my family absolutely think that I’m a bad parent for not raising my kid in that situation. They’ve told me that. I can understand where they’re coming from because I know their beliefs inside and out. Members are trained to have a very specific point of view (which is how cults operate). They think I may be denying him eternal life. I couldn’t be much worse as a parent than that.

It was not a great way to grow up. That’s for sure. Deprogramming was really tough. When I was growing up, I heard a lot of graphic stories about persecution and demons which gave me horrible insomnia, nightmares, anxiety, and panic attacks. It’s sort of like a kid getting scared at night about monsters, but instead of hearing that monsters aren’t real, parents say that they are, in fact, very real. My safety needs were compromised. Once again, they don’t understand healthy child development.

Children are children, not little adults. That’s part of what makes them so fantastic. They shouldn’t have childhood beaten, manipulated, shamed, or frightened out of them.

Cult expert Steven Hassan considers JWs a cult.

https://freedomofmind.com/the-bite-mode ... witnesses/

Do you have any idea how many people do leave? I can't imagine it's many when there's all that programming to overcome, and then the prospect of being rejected by your family and friends. Are there support groups for ex-JW's?

More people leave than used to thanks to the internet. I’m not sure exactly how many people are sticking with it, though. It’s really hard to get to the point where you will let yourself do the research although the internet makes it easier. They tell members not to investigate their beliefs from outside sources because they could be misled by Satan. The only acceptable “research” is in their publications or in material that happens to agree with them in some way. When child sex abuse allegations come out, they say that they could be lies or “half-truths,” so JWs are urged to not even watch such news reports. As a homeschooler, I wasn’t allowed to learn about evolution.

The exJW subreddit has been really helpful for a lot of people. When I take breaks from WP, I usually post there. There are some YouTubers that I watch and follow as well. Books and the movie Apostasy have been great, too.

My brother is physically in but (secretly) mentally out (PIMO) for family, so we talk a lot about this stuff. The biggest surprise of my life was when he woke up and apologized for shunning me. I can’t even express how important and meaningful that was to my life and overall well-being. Since his wife disapproves of me, he usually calls when he’s on his way home from work, so she won’t know about it. Some people have affairs; others have phone calls with their siblings.