Is there really this much homophobia in Cuba?

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RedDeathFlower13
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08 Dec 2023, 1:49 am

Dox47 wrote:

IIRC, the Castro government imprisoned gays, and some of the 70s radicals who hijacked planes to go there later regretted it because they said the Cubans were also incredibly racist. Something to remember next time you see a lefty in a Che shirt.

My sister and I passed a poster of Che at the airport in Tokyo which started our little disagreement about communism in Cuba under Fidel Castro.

Frankly I think anyone who idolizes these monsters is a twit.

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Mona Pereth
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08 Dec 2023, 1:56 am

I don't idolize these guys.

I just think we should end the embargo, now that things are getting better in Cuba.

Enmity with Cuba is dangerous to the U.S.A., as I pointed out here. Holding a grudge does not benefit the U.S.A. in any way, and can only harm us.

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RedDeathFlower13
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08 Dec 2023, 2:16 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

I never said you did. But believe me I know plenty of tankies online who idolize not only Castro and Che but Mao and Stalin too. Some weibos have even turned Kim Jong Un's psycho sister into their waifu just because she is Asian (if you can believe that crap).

And sure everyone else can let go of their grudge against Cuba and end the embargo if they want to. I can't stop them. But I probably won't be travelling to that country any time soon even if I was paid to go. There's plenty of better countries I could travel to that are LGBTQ-friendly AND not quick to judge me as the "Ugly American".

It's open season on Americans after all because people think we're worst than Hitler.

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RedDeathFlower13
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08 Dec 2023, 2:20 am

Oh and for the record, did letting go of our differences with China and opening relations to them under Nixon benefit us in the long run? Seems to me like all they did was steal or technology and now they're threatening to go war with us.

I think Americans arent exactly the brightest at judging foreign policy either way.

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Mona Pereth
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08 Dec 2023, 2:41 am

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

And sure everyone else can let go of their grudge against Cuba and end the embargo if they want to. I can't stop them. But I probably won't be travelling to that country any time soon even if I was paid to go. There's plenty of better countries I could travel to that are LGBTQ-friendly AND not quick to judge me as the "Ugly American".

I'm not planning to travel to Cuba either. Luckily, the fate of the U.S.A. does not depend on either your or my personal travel plans.

Whether you or I ever personally travel to Cuba is 100% irrelevant to my point, which has mainly to do with the U.S.A.'s enmity to Cuba being a geo-strategic weakness that can be readily exploited by China, Russia, or some other hostile power.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 08 Dec 2023, 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mona Pereth
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08 Dec 2023, 2:57 am

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

Oh and for the record, did letting go of our differences with China and opening relations to them under Nixon benefit us in the long run?

I wouldn't describe what Nixon did as completely "letting go of our differences," but just as opening up lines of communication.

Superpowers and aspiring superpowers are inevitably going to be rivals, and we should never let down our guard. Still, it's better to be at least superficially friendly than to engage in endless saber-rattling.

RedDeathFlower13
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08 Dec 2023, 2:59 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

I'm not planning to travel to Cuba either. Luckily, the fate of the U.S.A. does not depend on either your or my personal travel plans.

Whether you or I ever personally travel to Cuba is 100% irrelevant to my point, which has only to do with the U.S.A.'s enmity to Cuba being a geo-strategic weakness that can be readily exploited by China, Russia, or some other hostile power.

I feel like strategically the US is screwed regardless. Nixon thought that opening relations to China would work in our favor and for a while it did, but look at where we are with China today.

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Mona Pereth
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08 Dec 2023, 3:16 am

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

I feel like strategically the US is screwed regardless. Nixon thought that opening relations to China would work in our favor and for a while it did, but look at where we are with China today.

Do you therefore conclude that what Nixon did was a mistake? What do you think would have worked better, and why?

You seem to have a very binary, categorical view of international relations, as if we should expect to have a choice between good and evil, when often the best we can do is choose the least of the evils. But having to choose the least of the evils is NOT a reason to just give up and roll over and die. Instead, we need to do the best we can, while never letting our guard down.

As I said, superpowers and aspiring superpowers will inevitably be rivals.

China and Cuba are not comparable. China is a rival superpower. Cuba is a much smaller, less powerful country that can easily be used as a pawn by hostile superpowers. Given Cuba's location, I think it's important to try to prevent Cuba from being used as a pawn against the U.S.A.

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08 Dec 2023, 6:45 am

MaxE wrote:

Readydaer wrote:

America's embargo on Cuba is so petty and awful at this point. Big capitalist boot smushing little socialist country to keep the fat cats happy. I guarantee that if the embargo ended and Cuba started doing really well (it's already doing quite well considering how all-encompassing that embargo is) anti-socialists would leave them alone

The embargo thing is due to petty politics not some sort of ideological dispute.

I'd like to add that the embargo is probably overblown. Sure they may not trade much with the US but they trade with Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Colombia, Spain, the UK, the rest of Europe, not to mention China and the rest of the Far East. The embargo is not stopping them from prosperity. But they really don't have a lot to sell. Rum, cigars, baseball equipment, and lots and lots of sugar. When's the last time you saw somebody smoke a cigar?

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MaxE
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08 Dec 2023, 6:51 am

Readydaer wrote:

Doing well? That's a laugh. Try promoting that opinion on https://www.reddit.com/r/cuba

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08 Dec 2023, 7:50 am

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

Back on topic:

Readydaer wrote:

Castro also later publicly apologized and worked quite hard to get gay rights up to speed.

Thanks for letting us know. I just now looked it up and confirmed that there has been significant progress on LGBT rights in Cuba: See Wikipedia.

Oh sure, and giving scholarship money to the Native Americans makes the years of violent oppression all better too. That's sarcasm btw. :roll:

I doubt you'll find anyone here excusing America's genocide or Castro's early treatment here. The point is working toward improvement; if we held everyone and everything to a modern standard of morality, we would have nothing to build off of! ancient greek thinkers for example are famous for a reason, and yet often held controversial opinions.

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Readydaer
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08 Dec 2023, 7:53 am

MaxE wrote:

Readydaer wrote:

Doing well? That's a laugh. Try promoting that opinion on https://www.reddit.com/r/cuba

doing better than haiti and other Caribbean countries, that's for sure. Maybe not the DR because of the massive tourism there

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MaxE
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08 Dec 2023, 8:00 am

Readydaer wrote:

MaxE wrote:

Readydaer wrote:

Doing well? That's a laugh. Try promoting that opinion on https://www.reddit.com/r/cuba

doing better than haiti and other Caribbean countries, that's for sure. Maybe not the DR because of the massive tourism there

Haiti is clearly a special case. PR and the DR are both way better. I would like to know what other Caribbean country is worse? Although you should know that claiming some other place is worse is not a relevant argument.

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Readydaer
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08 Dec 2023, 8:40 am

MaxE wrote:

Although you should know that claiming some other place is worse is not a relevant argument.

yeah that's not really the point I'm trying to make here. People criticize Cuba for its governmental style and how it functions with other countries without taking a good look at the factors that led to how it is. And would people like Cuba more if America's fascist buddy Batista stayed in power?

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MaxE
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08 Dec 2023, 9:35 am

Readydaer wrote:

MaxE wrote:

Although you should know that claiming some other place is worse is not a relevant argument.

BTW Haiti has no functioning government so unable to do much for itself. The Cuban government has control and could do a lot for its people if so motivated, embargo or no.

As for Batista, that's was well over 60 years ago. I would have absolutely no idea. I do know that most of the information you find on the web is biased against Batista due to long-time sympathy for the Cuban Revolution dating from the early days of the Cold War. The Wikipedia article about him is a justification of the Revolution rather than a set of facts about Batista. I have no freaking idea. However, if you happen to think Augusto Pinochet Ugarte was a Fascist, well Chile is now doing VERY well, most developed country in LATAM.

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08 Dec 2023, 3:43 pm

MaxE wrote:

Readydaer wrote:

MaxE wrote:

Although you should know that claiming some other place is worse is not a relevant argument.

Pinochet was awful. One of my college professors left Allende's regime and only found work as a professor in the US long after being chased by death squads.

For the lack of Whole Foods locations Cuba has, their childhood hunger and malnutrition rates are much lower than in the US. They sport a lower infant mortality rate than the US. On the meager resources we allow them, I think they have good priorities. Obviously I think the average Cuban would want to play their chances in the US, but, I would much rather have my grandparents and parents retire there for the great elderly care available.

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