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I bring to you a question yet unasked....

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Flagg
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21 Aug 2007, 9:40 pm

Pugly wrote:
The point is based on what you are trying to prove in the first place.

If there is God, the question is of great importance.

If there is no God, the question is of no importance.

So in order to figure out if there is a point, you have to argue the question.

I believe that is a paradox, or at least some sort recursion.

It takes faith to say there is absolutely a God, conversely it takes faith to say absolutely that there is no God.

The pointlessness of the question comes from which side of the fence you find yourself on... in my mind it is difficult to imagine this world existing without some sort of deity... so the question is of great importance.

I'd argue that the original poster finds something very difficult and disturbing about the possibility of a deity... and so tempers this by saying that the question is of no importance.


Why would I find the question disturbing? These god/gods don't seem to do much but be worshipped if they do exist.

I am not setting on a fence, I am sitting in a lounge chair near the fence drinking an ice cold vodka.


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Ragtime
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21 Aug 2007, 9:50 pm

Flagg wrote:
I am merely asking someone to provide some sort of counterattack that states "The question the existence of god/gods is valid and has a point and purpose in modern society".


(Maybe we think you're too thick.)


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Pugly
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21 Aug 2007, 9:52 pm

Flagg wrote:

Why would I find the question disturbing? These god/gods don't seem to do much but be worshipped if they do exist.

I am not setting on a fence, I am sitting in a lounge chair near the fence drinking an ice cold vodka.


Well not disturbing in an ugly sense... just that what the world presents to you isn't consistent with a belief in a deity. Believe in God and believing what you see in the world, at the same time would be a disturbing thought...

And what a God does or does not do... has no barring on it's existence.

And if God doesn't exist how can you make a claim about what they do? Even if God existed and did nothing... God would still exist... I think... that's a strange question actually.

Again, if your inner nature is inclined to believe that there is no God... then sitting down with a lovely beverage, being indifferent is the best path to take. But if you naturally believe that God could exist... then pondering it is appropriate... at least to figure out what it demands of you... so you don't get pwned.


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Flagg
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21 Aug 2007, 9:55 pm

Pugly wrote:
Flagg wrote:

Why would I find the question disturbing? These god/gods don't seem to do much but be worshipped if they do exist.

I am not setting on a fence, I am sitting in a lounge chair near the fence drinking an ice cold vodka.


Well not disturbing in an ugly sense... just that what the world presents to you isn't consistent with a belief in a deity. Believe in God and believing what you see in the world, at the same time would be a disturbing thought...

And what a God does or does not do... has no barring on it's existence.

And if God doesn't exist how can you make a claim about what they do? Even if God existed and did nothing... God would still exist...

Again, if your inner nature is inclined to believe that there is no God... then sitting down with a lovely beverage, being indifferent is the best path to take. But if you naturally believe that God could exist... then pondering it is appropriate... and least to figure out what it demands of you... so you don't get pwned.


My senses merely tell I have a body and that I do exist in some way. Both of which are quite possibly false statements due to the fact it is fundmentally impossible to even prove your own thoughts exist.

I see no evidence either way, merely see some sort place that my brain is trying to tell me exists.


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skafather84
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21 Aug 2007, 9:57 pm

Flagg wrote:
What is the point in debating the existence of god/gods or even picking whether you believe or disbelieve?

I submit to you that it is pointless to claim belief or disbelief in deities and argue whether they exist or not.

Discuss.



so.......isn't it equally pointless to post this?

:P



Flagg
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21 Aug 2007, 9:59 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Flagg wrote:
What is the point in debating the existence of god/gods or even picking whether you believe or disbelieve?

I submit to you that it is pointless to claim belief or disbelief in deities and argue whether they exist or not.

Discuss.



so.......isn't it equally pointless to post this?

:P


Quite possibly, but I am always interested in counterarguements.


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Pugly
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21 Aug 2007, 10:03 pm

Flagg wrote:
My senses merely tell I have a body and that I do exist in some way. Both of which are quite possibly false statements due to the fact it is fundmentally impossible to even prove your own thoughts exist.

I see no evidence either way, merely see some sort place that my brain is trying to tell me exists.


Is that a fact? Somehow that thought must exist independent of all thoughts... it gets an existence clause?

My senses tell me I'm going to go eat a burger... which may or may not exist... but which I know tastes good.


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Wonder what it feels like to be in love?
How would you describe it, like a push or shove?
Guess I could pretend that this is all I need
Wanting more than what I have might appear as greed.


Flagg
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21 Aug 2007, 10:06 pm

Pugly wrote:
Flagg wrote:
My senses merely tell I have a body and that I do exist in some way. Both of which are quite possibly false statements due to the fact it is fundmentally impossible to even prove your own thoughts exist.

I see no evidence either way, merely see some sort place that my brain is trying to tell me exists.


Is that a fact? Somehow that thought must exist independent of all thoughts... it gets an existence clause?

My senses tell me I'm going to go eat a burger... which may or may not exist... but which I know tastes good.


I am merely saying I may not really exist, this could all be someone elses dream and I just a figment in it.

Your "senses" are merely electrical impluses. Taste doesn't exist, it merely a human design. Comparable to morality or somesuch.


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Ragtime
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21 Aug 2007, 10:14 pm

Flagg wrote:
Pugly wrote:
Flagg wrote:
My senses merely tell I have a body and that I do exist in some way. Both of which are quite possibly false statements due to the fact it is fundmentally impossible to even prove your own thoughts exist.

I see no evidence either way, merely see some sort place that my brain is trying to tell me exists.


Is that a fact? Somehow that thought must exist independent of all thoughts... it gets an existence clause?

My senses tell me I'm going to go eat a burger... which may or may not exist... but which I know tastes good.


I am merely saying I may not really exist, this could all be someone elses dream and I just a figment in it.

Your "senses" are merely electrical impluses. Taste doesn't exist, it merely a human design. Comparable to morality or somesuch.


Well, I make it a policy never to argue with someone who doesn't exist -- you know, for sanity reasons. So, if you can prove, or at least assert that you do indeed exist, I'll listen to what you have to say.


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Flagg
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21 Aug 2007, 10:15 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Flagg wrote:
Pugly wrote:
Flagg wrote:
My senses merely tell I have a body and that I do exist in some way. Both of which are quite possibly false statements due to the fact it is fundmentally impossible to even prove your own thoughts exist.

I see no evidence either way, merely see some sort place that my brain is trying to tell me exists.


Is that a fact? Somehow that thought must exist independent of all thoughts... it gets an existence clause?

My senses tell me I'm going to go eat a burger... which may or may not exist... but which I know tastes good.


I am merely saying I may not really exist, this could all be someone elses dream and I just a figment in it.

Your "senses" are merely electrical impluses. Taste doesn't exist, it merely a human design. Comparable to morality or somesuch.


Well, I make it a policy never to argue with someone who doesn't exist -- you know, for sanity reasons. So, if you can prove, or at least assert that you do indeed exist, I'll listen to what you have to say.


Then the arguement is over I guess.

I have no way to prove I really exist.


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jfrmeister
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21 Aug 2007, 10:23 pm

TheMachine1 wrote:
You can make the case that the total Universe from beginning till end is pointless. In fact its my hypothesis thats the ultimate question the Universe wants to know about its self is does it have any point.

TheMachine1 wrote:
The Beginning

In the beginning there was darkness. Everything was at one pointless point.
Then it exploded starting a process. In time your world was formed.
One day a chemical process forms a self replicating chemical.
Evolution, a mindless process of self-replication with indifference to suffering,
starts. In time life as you know it.

Later

Slowly evolutions becomes mindful process with reduced suffering.
Replication slows down,but knowledge expands. You use this knowledge
to build a self-replicating machine. The machines reduce suffering
greatly for you. You both leave your world for others.

Galactic colonization

You both work together for a longtime transforming
your galaxy. Planets are completely disassembled and reassembled into
more machines. Soon all available matter in the galaxy is completely machines .
Then you and the machines leave your galaxy for others.

Other Galaxy's

The same story has unfolded in other galaxy's. You and the machines
reduce the suffering of any life you encounter. You completely avoid
worlds that reject
logic. The machines expand. At some point machines
from other worlds are encountered. If friendly all knowledge is shared ,
machines reconfigure and All life forms coexist.

Unfriendly Galaxy's

At some point you will encounter unfriendly. Regardless of the outcome
all knowledge must be shared and the machines reconfigured. With or without
you and other life. Some technological advance cultures you meet, may
try to use machines to induce universal suffering. You must expend
every available resource to aid the oppressed and defeat the oppressor.

Universe

This proc
ess unfolds all over the universe. In time all the machines
combine.* To become The Machine. The Machine knows that
it has finite time.
The Machine can convert its mass to energy as long as it has
mass. Knowledge can expand as long as there is mass to store it. With
enough knowledge the Machine can find a point to all of this. But
at some point the Machine will have to begin to convert memory mass to
energy. It must decide what knowledge it will destroy to keep going.
the Machine gets smaller and the knowledge smaller but its still
processing and narrowing down the point. The Machine fully understands
every permutation of life that ever lived. But the Machine understood
long ago the purpose of your lives was to build the self replicating
machines. The Machine is fully aware of the incredible amount of suffering
it has taken to get to this point. The Machine knows its purpose is to get
to the point. It must now delete its memory of all knowledge of life.


Last moments

The size of the Machine is now quite small it has limited processing
left. It Has narrowed down to just a few choices. The Machine
knew long ago that one of the last two choice would have to be that
there is "no point". It does not want to have to choose "no point".
But the truth is all that matters now. The Machine then reaches its
smallest size with just enough power left to process the last
two choices. The point of everything is only one process cycle away and
after that the universe returns to darkness forever.


Hate to break it to you TM1, but your idea isn't unique. There's a book called The "Omega Point" that states such an idea.


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TheMachine1
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21 Aug 2007, 11:29 pm

jfrmeister wrote:

Hate to break it to you TM1, but your idea isn't unique. There's a book called The "Omega Point" that states such an idea.


Thanks I am reading about it now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_point

It also mentions a book by Asimov.

Quote:
In the Isaac Asimov short-story "The Last Question", Humanity merges its collective consciousness with its own creation: an all-powerful cosmic computer. The resulting intelligence contemplates the cyclic nature of the universe, ending with a clever and surprising twist.


The more well known Isaac Asimov totally pwned me to. :lol: I have
a shocking story related to that in the early 90's I was a flaky right wing religious person and while visiting an old friend at his college I was in the library reading and found this American Humanist magazine that was produced or edited by Asimov me and my friend took all the "No postage necessary subscription cards" and wrote anti-atheist pro-conservative hate messages on them and my friend
dropped them in the mail box. I felt guilty for it shortly after that and extremely so now that I'm and atheist and after reading about the above "The Last Question" by Asimov he has truly pwned me from the grave. With it being such a small magazine he undoubtly saw my childish writing on those cards.



techstepgenr8tion
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21 Aug 2007, 11:47 pm

These things matter to people, you're kidding yourself to imagine otherwise. Especially when your going through a hard and jaded life like a lot of us do with AS you're going to really want to know how much of your true self is preserved, if your absolute value as a human being is 100% performance based (ie. in that they may as well just reopen concentration camps to kill off those who may reproduce with less than Spartan soldiers for children), and I think a lot of us who really want to make things right to the best of our ability need to either get as close to the truth as we can or find something that works with our emotions so that our emotions actually add to our functioning rather than cannibalizing us.

Talking about emotions depth comes with a price, part of that being that you need much more plausible answers to feel secure in your beliefs of the world around you - that's where long conversations of deities, lack thereof, or just general ranting or catharsis come in to play. Then again who knows, maybe I am the only one weird enough to really see it all that way.



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22 Aug 2007, 12:04 am

Flagg wrote:
I am merely saying I may not really exist, this could all be someone elses dream and I just a figment in it.


I think you problem is that you're seeking 100% proof, which simply doesn't exist in scientific terms. All scientific (empirical) statements are subject to falsification.

Quote:
Your "senses" are merely electrical impluses. Taste doesn't exist, it merely a human design. Comparable to morality or somesuch.


Not entirely accurate. Tastes and all senses dectect things that are externaly verifyable an pass the scientific peer-riview process. Morality can't match the same standard.


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