Was Jesus really God?

Page 2 of 6 [ 94 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next

Joined: 18 Nov 2014
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,658
Location: California,USA

12 Nov 2023, 11:35 pm

Good question, is Jesus God’s son? My mom told me about Jesus over 30 years ago, I forgot some of the story. Can you really celebrate Christmas if you not religious?

TwilightPrincess
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 29,211
Location: Hell

12 Nov 2023, 11:39 pm

I celebrate Christmas, and I'm an atheist. Most of the Christmas traditions have nothing to do Jesus.

_________________
"I think Jesus was a compassionate, super-intelligent gay man who understood human problems.” — Elton John

naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

13 Nov 2023, 12:38 am

Unitarians reinvented the notion that Christ was just a mortal prophet...hence their name (Uni as opposed to trinitarian).

But the rest of Nicene Creed believing sects (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant)all believe in the Trinity.

They have this double think that "we believe in one God ...but we believe in three gods...but they are all really one god...and if you dont understand that then...weeellll....its a mystery!".

And the Catholics even come perilously close to adding a forth deity...a goddess. Namely the Virgin Mary.

TwilightPrincess
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 29,211
Location: Hell

13 Nov 2023, 12:58 am

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe he’s the Son of God, not part of a trinity. If I were a believer, I’d agree with them on this point based on my own reading of the Bible. The God of the Old Testament sucks, though, so Jesus would be an upgrade although even he’s problematic in certain respects IMO.

_________________
"I think Jesus was a compassionate, super-intelligent gay man who understood human problems.” — Elton John

The_Walrus
Forum Moderator

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,846
Location: London

13 Nov 2023, 7:19 am

MatchboxVagabond wrote:

Personally, I don't buy into it, but wasn't it mostly Catholics that buy that Trinity BS.

No, it was established at the First Council of Nicaea and is today accepted by Protestant, Orthodox, and Church of the East Christians alike. Non-trinitarian Christians are oddballs like Oneness Pentecostals, LDS, and Jehovah's Witnesses.

IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 72,422
Location: Chez Quis

13 Nov 2023, 7:20 am

My son's girlfriend is named Trinity and she's Jewish.
That's odd, right?

I was kind of surprised by it.

_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles

naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

13 Nov 2023, 7:45 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:

My son's girlfriend is named Trinity and she's Jewish.
That's odd, right?

I was kind of surprised by it.

It is surprising.

And ...what was the name of THE site in the New Mexico desert were they set off the first atomic bomb, ...tested.the device...newly minted by the scientists of the Manhatten Project? In 1945.

"Trinity".

And who thought of that as the name for the site?

Robert Oppenheimer.

And he was also Jewish.

Go figure.

Or maybe it isnt surprising because if either the girl's parents, or Oppenheimer, had been Gentiles the name might have seemed mildly blasphemous. But still I wonder why either set of namers thought of the name. The number three might have figured in the naming of either the person or the place or both. Have never seen any explanation for how Oppenheimer came up with the name, nor if or why he associated the site with the number three.

IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 72,422
Location: Chez Quis

13 Nov 2023, 8:22 am

I've never met her or her parents, because she's in Australia.
I'm curious though.

_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles

Honey69
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,735
Location: Llareggub

13 Nov 2023, 10:20 am

naturalplastic wrote:

Be that as it may...God sacrificed his one son so...we would learn to be nice each other.

According to the Bible, God had multiple sons.

Genesis 6 wrote:

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose...

...There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

_________________
Semen retentum venenum est

TwilightPrincess
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 29,211
Location: Hell

13 Nov 2023, 10:31 am

For those who don't want to watch the video, Ehrman touches on the Trinity in his blog:

Quote:

There is nowhere in the Bible that we have an explicit reference to the doctrine of the Trinity, that there are three persons in the godhead, and the three are actually one. With an exception. The doctrine of the Trinity DOES seem to be explicitly taught (or nearly explicitly taught) in 1 John 5:7. Here is what it says:

There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one.

Right! There it is. That’s just about as explicit as can be. There are three. They are in heaven (meaning they are divine beings). They are God the Father, and the “Word” of God (i.e., Christ), and the Spirit. And those three are one. So the Trinity is indeed taught in the Bible, right?

It will take me two posts, but I’m going to explain why this verse was not originally in the New Testament. It was added by a later scribe. This is not a disputed point among biblical scholars – except for some rather hard-core fundamentalists. The evidence is so overwhelming that I agreed the verse wasn’t original back when I myself was a rather hard-core fundamentalist.

https://ehrmanblog.org/is-the-trinity-in-the-bible/

_________________
"I think Jesus was a compassionate, super-intelligent gay man who understood human problems.” — Elton John

aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,885

13 Nov 2023, 11:17 am

"The cosmos is within us. We are made of star stuff.

We are a way for the universe to know itself." -Carl Sagan

In Other Words, 'We aRe The Truth, The Way, And The Light;'

(Note: Earth Worms Are Also Made of Star Stuff too; In Other
Words, Humans Really Aren't So God Dammed Uniquely Special)

Chances Are, the Innumerable Roman Greek Writing Ghost Authors
And Scribes Who Wrote the New Testament, Including the Story of Jesus

(Along with the Church and or State Officials Who Selected The
Anthology of Mixed and Matched-Up Scripts ACross Centuries)

Didn't Have Any 'Big Degrees' From Accredited Universities; Yet

Dear Lord, Just Have a Look Around Nature; Above So Below

Within Inside Outside and All Around, See the

Tree in the Leaf,

Both Living

And Dead,

RiSinG Falling,

Fertilizing Spring Green Leaves
Coloring Pretty Summer Flowers;

Hmm, Roughly Speaking, If You
Center This Text, It Looks Like a Tree

For It's True the Word Tree By Itself, Literally Doesn't Resemble a Tree

Yet Linguistically, One May Intuit The 'Ree' Spreading Out From The 'T,'

Like The Roots of 'This Entire Tree' comprised in the Last Lines Here at Least...

'Listen' Up, Lifting Veils oF iGNorance

(Original Greek Definition

of Apocalypse; Not Frigging

Ending the Only Heaven on Earth

Within Now, Now, Now, Only Now;

Per Cherry Picking "Luke 17:21"

And Even Doing Greater Works

Than Jesus in "John 14:12"

As Any Humble;

God Yes, TRULY

COMPETENT

Parent, Mentor,
or Teacher Hope
For Those They Teach Now)

Dear Lord of Nature, Seen and
Unseen, All That Is; This isn't 'Rocket

Science;' It Was Easy Enough

For Our Ancient Ancestors to

Pick Up a Leaf And Figure Out

"The Father and i Are One;"

(Restricted of Course to
the Metaphors Then)

Hey, They Didn't

Have An Advanced

Degree Like Carl Sagan

Yet They Had Eyes and Ears

to Hear and See More, Deeper Than

Just the Form of A Literal Word or Leaf.

It Appears That

Many Humans

Have Both

Literally And Metaphorically

Lost Their Common Sense (God);

Yes, The Good News is We aRe Both
Star Flowers and Seeds; And of Course
The Little Brown Man Who Died on the

Cross Could Have Helped Resurrect New Green
Leaves and Pretty Flowers, IF They Didn't Hoard His Body;

Chances Are, In Reality, He and the Other Crucified Dudes

Got Buried And Perhaps Helped A Leaf of Grass Spring for

(Note: i am Capable of Sounding Like 'James Earl Jones,' heHe)

'The Antelope to Eat And

Then Feed

The Lion'

Truly

Bringing
Life Back Again;

Honestly, If one Can't
See The Miracle in Every

Leaf, Both Alive and Dead, They Really Haven't even lived...

They Might Wanna Blast Off and Live on Mars as They Might
Not Even Believe This Miracle of Life On Earth is Worth Dying to Breathe...

i Don't
Need to
Believe, For
i Truly BREaTHE Free...

Naked, Enough, Whole
Complete, i Inherited
All of This From Birth FOR REAL;

If 'They' ReMeMBeR, The Good News Is, 'They' Do too..

-Us

More
Specifically

-We..

_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI

Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick

naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

13 Nov 2023, 11:26 am

Honey69 wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Be that as it may...God sacrificed his one son so...we would learn to be nice each other.

According to the Bible, God had multiple sons.

Genesis 6 wrote:

Hmmmm...

I have read that passage.

And in college I had Evangelical students frequently remind me of how "God sacrificed his ONLY child for YOU!"

Never thought about those two things in the same train of thought before so hadnt noticed the seeming contradiction.

DANG! So I guess...yes... God had some unknown number of horney sons...who would go around knocking up human ladies back in Genesis. Then...apparently he did birth control and had no more children for three thousand years, and then had the one Jesus kid. And then stopped having kids again for 2000 years after that.

Interesting observation.

But Jesus's unknown number of older brothers had all passed away by Jesus's time. SO ...Jesus was the only EXTANT son of God in his lifetime on Earth!

So he was God's only living child!

So...gotcha! :lol:

ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,073

13 Nov 2023, 11:43 am

funeralxempire wrote:

No, Jesus was a man if he existed at all.

It seems there's evidence that he did exist, which is corroborated by sources outside of scripture, but the extraordinary claims about him that he was a miracle-working deity are controversial and only weakly supported by non-Biblical sources:
"Scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the biblical accounts, with two events being supported by nearly universal scholarly consensus: Jesus was baptized and crucified."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

My own view is that he existed and that many of the non-extraordinary Biblical details about him are likely correct (though I don't see any sensible way of figuring out which of the details are the correct ones). As for his being God, that's an extraordinary claim unsupported by strong evidence, so as far as I can tell, the balance of probabilities is that it's false. So much so that I'm not afraid of going to hell.

Last edited by ToughDiamond on 13 Nov 2023, 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

ToughDiamond
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,073

13 Nov 2023, 11:43 am

MatchboxVagabond wrote:

If you start asking questions, the whole thing kind of falls apart.

It makes zero sense for Jesus to also be his own dad because how is he then sacrificing his only son for our sins? That's him offing himself to save us from his own punishment for the original sin.

Personally, I don't buy into it, but wasn't it mostly Catholics that buy that Trinity BS. I'm not completely convinced that Catholics are still Christians because of things like that and completely made up stuff like purgatory. If they are, they're terrible biblical scholars.

I can't really say that I care either way, the whole thing is a mess.

Indeed, I've yet to see any Christian apologetics that aren't muddled and ultimately unconvincing to my mind. This one is the best I've found - it starts off very well but I think it eventually degenerates into propaganda tricks, though I plan to study it in more depth:

https://answersingenesis.org/is-the-bib ... e-is-true/

One of the main problems with traditional Christianity for me is their notion of scapegoating as a good thing. The idea of taking an innocent life-form and "sacrificing" it in order to appease a capricious, powerful deity may have been acceptable to the ancients, but I can't seem to abandon my conviction that it's an appalling thing to do. Saying "But Jesus came back to life again" doesn't really mitigate the agony of crucifixion, and even the scapegoating is the wrong way round - a deity being unable to forgive mortals until the deity has sacrificed himself in the form of his own son, seems downright bizarre to me. It would make a bit more sense if it was God who needed to atone for his own mistakes so that we could forgive him, but even then, couldn't he have just apologised?

Honey69
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 29 Jan 2023
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,735
Location: Llareggub

14 Nov 2023, 10:38 am

naturalplastic wrote:

But Jesus's unknown number of older brothers had all passed away by Jesus's time. SO ...Jesus was the only EXTANT son of God in his lifetime on Earth!

So he was God's only living child!

So...gotcha! :lol:

If Jude is referring to Jesus' older brothers

Jude 1 wrote:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Old Yahweh can get nasty sometimes.

_________________
Semen retentum venenum est

The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 42
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,085
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.

14 Nov 2023, 11:56 am

The_Walrus wrote:

MatchboxVagabond wrote:

Personally, I don't buy into it, but wasn't it mostly Catholics that buy that Trinity BS.

Non-trinitarian Christians are oddballs like Oneness Pentecostals, LDS, and Jehovah's Witnesses.

… and one of those sects evolved to Islam

Page 2 of 6 [ 94 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 Next

Jump to:

Was Jesus really God? Post Reply New Topic

Was Jesus really God?