PPR: Get something off your chest.

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I don’t understand patriotism. It seems like a largely negative thing since it promotes an us vs. them mentality and other types of silliness.

I’m not proud to be an American. I had no choice in the matter.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegle ... 9314831b55

Maybe this will help.  I started this back in 2017, about a year after Trump was sworn in.

A Comparison of Patriotism vs. Nationalism:

Patriotism: "My country can always do better."
Nationalism: "My country is already the best."

Patriotism: "My country, right or wrong!"
Nationalism: "My country; love it or leave it!"

Patriotism: A sense of personal identification with the country and all its people.
Nationalism: A sense of personal identification with the government and all its ruling class.

Patriotism: Rooted in love of country and culture.
Nationalism: Rooted in conquest of other countries and suppression of their cultures.

Patriotism: Uniting citizen for the well-being of the country.
Nationalism: Uniting citizens against the well-being of other countries.

Patriotism: Unity through shared values.
Nationalism: Unity through shared ancestry.

Patriotism: Praying that the country will bless God.
Nationalism: Praying that God will bless the country.

Patriotism: Critical of the country whenever necessary.
Nationalism: Silencing the country's critics whenever possible.

Patriotism: "Diversity is the foundation of our existence, and must be encouraged."
Nationalism: "Diversity is the bane of our existence, and must be eliminated."

Patriotism: Due process under the law.
Nationalism: Arrest, accuse, convict, sentence, execute/incarcerate -- evidence is irrelevant.

Patriotism: Equality, Liberty, and Justice for All.
Nationalism: Equality, Liberty, and Justice for the Privileged Few.

Patriotism: Fighting Nazis.
Nationalism: Being Nazis.

Patriotism: Freedom of Press, Speech, and Peaceful Assembly.
Nationalism: Propaganda, Censorship, and Harassment.

Patriotism: Government by consent of the governed.
Nationalism: Government by force and decree of those who govern.

Patriotism: Hiring and promotion based solely on ability.
Nationalism: Hiring and promotion based on race and gender.

Patriotism: Learning from our history and the history of others.
Nationalism: Teaching our version of history to others.

Patriotism: Pride in who you are.
Nationalism: Pride in who you are not.

Patriotism: Special concern for the well-being of the citizenry.
Nationalism: Special concern for the well-being of the leadership.

Patriotism: Upholding the right of others to disagree with authority.
Nationalism: Equating disagreement with treachery, disloyalty, and moral decay.

Patriotism: War should only be undertaken when diplomacy has failed.
Nationalism: Diplomacy flows from the barrel of a gun.

Patriotism: Willingness to sacrifice oneself to promote the country's good.
Nationalism: Willingness to sacrifice others to promote one's own self-interest.

America's problems aren't as much about Left vs. Right as they are about Patriotism vs. Nationalism.

TP: I fail to understand why people feel patriotism, it makes no sense.
F: Here's how I personally define patriotism from nationalism.

You're responding but failing to understand what a valid response needs to address.

And you are criticizing me for having answers -- at least I try to provide those answers instead of knee-jerk critiques.

No, I'm clearly criticizing you for not having answers, posting a barely related copy-pasta you had lying around and assuming everyone was too dumb to notice or too chickenshit to call you out on it out of fear of being insulted.

No one will think less of you if you stopped for a moment and actually considered what the post you're replying to means before barfing up a copypasta essay.

It might actually be genuinely aggrandizing instead of blatantly self-aggrandizing. Instead of regularly telling us what a profound thinker you are you could try just demonstrating it in a practical way by understanding what you are responding to and thoroughly demonstrating that understanding in your reply, instead of just slapping together something snarky and hitting submit.

While I probably wouldn’t define things as you do Fnord, I wouldn’t even feel good about endorsing many of your views of patriotism. I have trouble understanding why others would do so unless tribalism and indoctrination were at work on some level. Both nationalism and patriotism encourage an us vs. them mentality rather than a worldview, and they both discourage critical thinking which is why people are so prone to believing in and adhering to political propaganda as well as parroting loaded language.

I think it’s better to identify with all humans whether they are American, French, Mexican, Palestinian, etc.

I believe in appreciating all countries and cultures. We might appreciate some countries more than others on an individual level, but there’s no reason why we should love America more than anywhere else.

Many people in the world have similar values, not that diversity shouldn’t be celebrated.

Americans don’t all worship the same god or any god.

I’m pretty sure Nazis can be patriotic.

I feel the same degree of concern for all humans, and I think the world would be a better place if more people felt that way.

I wouldn’t sacrifice myself more for America than anywhere else and would find the idea of that a bit distasteful although we all have different moral values.

I wasn’t really asking a question. I was getting something off my chest. You only quoted the first sentence that I wrote. Maybe you would’ve had a better idea what I was getting at if you had read my entire post.

I know what patriotism is. I don’t understand why people endorse it although it seems to be less popular with younger people.

Instead of describing the differences between patriotism and nationalism in your opinion, a response might’ve fit with my post more if it had stated why you think people are patriotic.

In my opinion, patriotism is mostly negative and causes a lot of problems - America/self-centeredness being one of them, but not everyone will have the same viewpoint as I do.

Patriotism - I agree 100% with everything TP has said about loving and valuing all humans regardless of where they were born, or which artificial boundary has been designated by governments. I was always very proud of the country I was raised in, however. I admired the rights and freedoms I was given as a citizen, and I was always very happy to sing or hear our anthem -- not to the detriment of other countries but to be thankful for my own. That feeling has changed a little over time. It's not that I'm not proud now, but I've learned more about the corruption of my current (and past) leaders. I won't follow anyone blindly, and I'll always promote international human rights above any other distinction.

I should add that I never had to "pledge allegiance" to my country. That would freak me out and change everything.

I’ve never been proud to be an American. I don’t really understand that either because it’s not like I contributed to my country to any meaningful extent. I just happened to be born here. However, I’m glad that I live in the US and not in a lot of other places with extreme governments and/or extreme conditions of any other sort. North Korea probably wouldn’t be pleasant.

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 18 May 2024, 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

In the circles I've moved in, the British aren't strongly patriotic by any means, though I've seen a bit of it on TV, mostly from football fans and a right-wing demograph I dislike and don't mix with in real life. I could hardly believe the American thing. Kids forced to recite a pledge of allegiance in schools, stars and stripes in every second back yard, God Bless America, my country this, my country that, Independence Day, Thanksgiving, trembling upper lips at military rituals, president hugging a magic cloth (flag), support for the troops is a given, and "un-American" is somehow accepted as a pejorative. These matters don't come up much so I don't have much on my chest to get off. If they want to play their funny games, let them. People do a lot of funny games. If they want me to be part of it, I'd usually tell them I've got the flu or something. Don't like lying, but the alternative is probably worse. I can't talk them out of it because it's not rational and I'd probably fall into the trap of attempting logical argument, which can't work against cherished beliefs, it just annoys them.

Why do they do it? I guess some of it is that they have a sense of belonging to their nation that I've never experienced. I stand outside of national society, perhaps because I'm an Aspie. I see America as too big and variegated to love as a single entity. But for them, it doesn't have to be logical, it's an emotional thing, though they might pretend it's logical if it's attacked. Probably a little like religion where upbringing and reinforcement makes quite a difference especially to NTs. I feel a bit of warmth for England but that's just about missing the bits of it I'm familiar with when I'm not there for months on end. It's not a giant pride thing, it's just my home, even if a lot of it is a cesspit. Some of it is the refreshing lack of a language barrier. Americans and I still find each other's language hard to understand at times. As for leaders, I've yet to admire one enough to have much respect for them.

That's okay by me -- you're not impugning my intelligence, ancestry, hygiene, or sexual habits.

Simple disagreement is cool.

One of my cousins believes in ancient aliens. She was selling essential oils for a while and is into homeopathy, so it’s not exactly surprising.

My family still thinks that Armageddon is going to come any day now. I remember them saying that it would arrive before I was old enough to go to kindergarten. I wonder if that’s why my parents sent me to school late.

My sister is into "Energy Healing" and praying to angels.  She is also the one who was most vocal about removing me from any family holiday guest lists.  She adheres to woo-woo ideas, and refuses to consider that any of her beliefs are invalid, even when shown valid empirical proof to the contrary.

The alien stuff is even crazier than I thought. Apparently, those pesky aliens built pyramids so they could communicate with each other in different locales (and, I suppose, different time periods). One would think that they’d be advanced enough that they wouldn’t need pyramids. Of course, maybe they liked them from an artistic standpoint. I can’t fault them there.

In all seriousness, my cousin is still prone to the same sort of irrational beliefs she had when she was still in the cult. Her focus has just shifted.

She’s also an antivaxxer. It seems like people rarely have one irrational belief. It’s typically a cluster of them.

Patriotism is loyalty to the country.

Nationalism is loyalty to the tribe/ethnic group/race you belong to. More akin to racism.

Nationalism is NOT conquering other countries. Though it can lead down the path of militarism to that end.

In old world countries like Europe (until the 21s century) the difference between nationalism and patriotism was less stark than in the US because old world countries were all about loyalty to the king and tended to have one dominate ethnic group that had been in the land for centuries. Though today western Europe gets more immigrants (both from other European countries, and from the brown skinned third world beyond Europe)and is starting to resemble the US more in its complexion.

In new frontier country like the US that receive immigrants, where the original inhabitants were all driven to reservations or exterminated we are all newcomers. So being loyal to the country's ideals of democracy is more important than being loyal to a particular tribal ethnic group. So you have no choice but to pick patriotism over nationalism (unless your a full blooded Cherokee).

But that doesnt stop the current trend of trying to create an expost facto "tribe" of core White pious Christinan Evangelists out of the American population who strive to be nationalists.

American Christian nationalism, Modi's current Hindu nationalism in India, and Zionism, are all examples of Nationalism. Nazism is a pathological extreme form of nationalism.