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DoniiMann
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25 Nov 2024, 4:23 pm

Rereading all of this, I'll share an experience I had in 1986. Christian (Which I no longer am), but the other experiences I've had fall under other categories than 'miracle', and I'm just putting it out there that stuff happens. I don't doubt that other people of other religions have their experiences.

In 1986 I was a church going Christian who was renting a small unit for $70 per week, payable on Mondays.

I was short for rent only once in that year, and the following experience only happened once that year. Came a Sunday and I was short for $30, payable in 24 hours. Being a Sunday, at church, and with no other options, I prayed for $30.

After church, a lady came up to me and passed me an envelop claiming God wanted her to give it to me. You know what comes next. $30 in the envelop. Simple. Neat. And given the amount and timing... 'coincidence' just doesn't cover it.

Stuff happens.


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lostonearth35
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04 Dec 2024, 1:11 am

There's no such thing as miracles, not even Christmas ones. WWIII is coming, and there is no Santa, no elves and definitely no guardian angels to come save us. It's all just a bunch of unrealistically positive BS that only happens in the movies.



Edna3362
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04 Dec 2024, 2:31 am

Spontaneous Remission happens; explanation unknown other than it's basically placebo taken into an extreme.
Only few possible theories in context of certain medical conditions -- but it becomes different when it's around severe injuries, incurable or congenital disabilities, a sharp turn from severe mental illnesses...

The rest are series of coincidences, or statistical anomaly over certain situations that made some people question reality, existence of higher power and other sorts of phenomenon into some sort of conspiracy that had saved or healed people.


But sure.
I would definitely like the idea that there is some sort of mechanics, reasoning, physics or an actionable and observable metaphysical processes to be able to manifest such event or phenomenon.


I definitely don't believe miracles are limited to any religious beliefs or practices, nor are limited to certain 'special' nor 'chosen' people.
That it's all perception.


And oh yeah...
I personally perceive myself as lucky; luckier than average at least.
And it resonates so far in my life, and I'm not the only one who's observing.

... I'm not a devout follower of any religion, I am not a practioner of any ritual, I am not even one of these psychologically profiled optimist who usually sees positive outcomes that also uses infectious charm and quantitive resilient-presevere types of opportunism as an expression of luck.
I'm not even one of those super grateful people who's easily impressed and easily pleased.


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lostonearth35
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05 Dec 2024, 8:34 pm

Thanking Jesus for things healing your sunburn is just stupid. Did Jesus just appear and healed it? No, the human body is actually capable of healing itself naturally. Or what if was a severe sunburn that landed you in the hospital? You're not going to give any thanks to the medical people who helped you to heal? But then again, if you live in the US you have to pay them, so they're not really doing you any favors. And in Canada you have to wait for eternity unless you're literally dying, and sometimes even if if you are and then you do die.

And then there are children who are dying from cancer. What makes you think Jesus or God cares about your whining about a sunburn, which you could have easily prevented with sun protection that a fairly sensible human being would have used, when they clearly don't care about kids who didn't do any wrong wasting away and suffering the horrible side effects of chemotherapy in the hospital?



blitzkrieg
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06 Dec 2024, 7:38 am

DoniiMann wrote:
Rereading all of this, I'll share an experience I had in 1986. Christian (Which I no longer am), but the other experiences I've had fall under other categories than 'miracle', and I'm just putting it out there that stuff happens. I don't doubt that other people of other religions have their experiences.

In 1986 I was a church going Christian who was renting a small unit for $70 per week, payable on Mondays.

I was short for rent only once in that year, and the following experience only happened once that year. Came a Sunday and I was short for $30, payable in 24 hours. Being a Sunday, at church, and with no other options, I prayed for $30.

After church, a lady came up to me and passed me an envelop claiming God wanted her to give it to me. You know what comes next. $30 in the envelop. Simple. Neat. And given the amount and timing... 'coincidence' just doesn't cover it.

Stuff happens.


This is a lovely story, DoniiMann. :)



DoniiMann
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06 Dec 2024, 4:22 pm

blitzkrieg wrote:
This is a lovely story, DoniiMann. :)


Thanks. It kinda highlights a point. Science is like a candle lit at midnight in the centre of a football oval. It illuminates it's immediate area. But there's a lot of black out there.

I had an experience about five years later in which I was house-sitting for some family members. There was nobody else there. Just me. Laying in bed, I listened to the zipper on my overnight bag running its tracks. Ziiiippppp... ziiiipppp.

Years later, I brought this up on a 'Science vs Religion' forum. The only person on the science side who had a go at explaining it, suggested that maybe a prankster was under the house with a super magnet directed at the zip.

I love science. I believe in science. I just don't think it covers 'everything' adequately.

About ten years ago I had a dream in which I was washing windows in my house, but since it was raining I decided to not do the outside of the windows.

Next morning at breakfast, one of my kids told me to not forget to wash the outside of the windows.

Good luck with that one, science.


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RachObi
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10 Dec 2024, 10:47 am

I wonder what some people who don’t believe that miracles or healing happen what do they think of stories of reported cases of miracles or healing from those who don’t even ask for a miracle but get one.

This has happened in Lourdes for example this case about Bernadette Moriau who never asked for a miracle but was given one and been proved. You can read more about the case here.
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... s-miracle/



TwilightPrincess
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10 Dec 2024, 11:45 am

^ She may have gotten better but that doesn’t prove that it was a miracle.

Sometimes things just improve/heal on their own, perhaps especially when hope, a positive attitude, and/or a belief that miracles can happen are present - the placebo effect. IMO, the 70 alleged miracles (or even the 7,000 unconfirmed ones) at Lourdes aren’t really that impressive considering how often people go there for healing - the thousands upon thousands every year. 5 million people annually make a pilgrimage there. Sure, they aren’t all seeking healing but a fair amount are. Coincidences, misdiagnoses, stuff going into remission or getting better for whatever reason, etc. happen. In other words, I think that just because the cause of an improvement is unknown or can’t currently be explained by science doesn’t mean that a miracle was responsible for it. God of the gaps is applicable here.

Here’s an interesting account from 1987 which could further call into question some of those 70 alleged miracles:

Quote:
According to James Randi, in his book The Faith Healers:
"Serge Perrin, 41 years old, claimed that he had recovered from “recurring organic hemiplegia” (paralysis of one side of the body) and recurring blindness in one eye. The Lourdes medical team declared the case “miraculous.” But an American team examined the data and discovered that the necessary tests—a spinal tap and a brain scan—had not been done to properly establish the cause of the condition. In fact, the American doctors said, Perrin’s symptoms are classic signs of hysteria; in the absence of appropriate medical tests, that was a much more probable diagnosis. Furthermore, hysteria is known to respond favorably to highly emotional circumstances like those encountered at religious ceremonies... If Serge Perrin’s case is representative, there are good reasons to be distrustful of officially declared miraculous cures at Lourdes."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau

Hysteria is no longer a term that’s used, but it is possible that some afflictions people struggled with were psychosomatic in nature which could’ve made “faith healing” even more likely.

One more point: relying on faith healing can be dangerous if one opts to go that route rather than seek appropriate medical attention which leads to greater scrutiny and its bad reputation overall.
Quote:
An investigation led by Asser published in Pediatrics found that between 1975 and 1995, 172 children died following faith healing, 140 from easily curable or treatable medical conditions

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/P ... %E2%80%939).


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RachObi
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14 Dec 2024, 9:17 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
^ She may have gotten better but that doesn’t prove that it was a miracle.

Sometimes things just improve/heal on their own, perhaps especially when hope, a positive attitude, and/or a belief that miracles can happen are present - the placebo effect. IMO, the 70 alleged miracles (or even the 7,000 unconfirmed ones) at Lourdes aren’t really that impressive considering how often people go there for healing - the thousands upon thousands every year. 5 million people annually make a pilgrimage there. Sure, they aren’t all seeking healing but a fair amount are. Coincidences, misdiagnoses, stuff going into remission or getting better for whatever reason, etc. happen. In other words, I think that just because the cause of an improvement is unknown or can’t currently be explained by science doesn’t mean that a miracle was responsible for it. God of the gaps is applicable here.

Here’s an interesting account from 1987 which could further call into question some of those 70 alleged miracles:
Quote:
According to James Randi, in his book The Faith Healers:
"Serge Perrin, 41 years old, claimed that he had recovered from “recurring organic hemiplegia” (paralysis of one side of the body) and recurring blindness in one eye. The Lourdes medical team declared the case “miraculous.” But an American team examined the data and discovered that the necessary tests—a spinal tap and a brain scan—had not been done to properly establish the cause of the condition. In fact, the American doctors said, Perrin’s symptoms are classic signs of hysteria; in the absence of appropriate medical tests, that was a much more probable diagnosis. Furthermore, hysteria is known to respond favorably to highly emotional circumstances like those encountered at religious ceremonies... If Serge Perrin’s case is representative, there are good reasons to be distrustful of officially declared miraculous cures at Lourdes."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau

Hysteria is no longer a term that’s used, but it is possible that some afflictions people struggled with were psychosomatic in nature which could’ve made “faith healing” even more likely.

One more point: relying on faith healing can be dangerous if one opts to go that route rather than seek appropriate medical attention which leads to greater scrutiny and its bad reputation overall.
Quote:
An investigation led by Asser published in Pediatrics found that between 1975 and 1995, 172 children died following faith healing, 140 from easily curable or treatable medical conditions

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/P ... %E2%80%939).

I cannot comment on the second case as I would really need to research it with multiple sources to feel secure to comment. I think that the Bernadette case was a miracle.

I linked to a rough overview of her case but I have read multiple sources on her case and it points to a miracle to me. Science and the church were in agreement that there were was no possible other explanation.

I have to say I attended for a blessing at church before and felt that radiation to quite intensly.

Moving On

There are enough yogi's who claim to live on fresh air and prana in most religions and that would be a miracle in itself. I do wonder where some of these people are getting their power and I wouldn't imagine it is all divine.



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14 Dec 2024, 9:46 pm

Quote:
Science and the church were in agreement that there were was no possible other explanation.
There may have been no known medical explanations for specific cases, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that one doesn’t exist.


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RachObi
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17 Dec 2024, 9:18 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Quote:
Science and the church were in agreement that there were was no possible other explanation.
There may have been no known medical explanations for specific cases, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that one doesn’t exist.


Obviously you cannot convince anyone of anything if they don't believe it. I have no interest of that.

However, I was wondering do you have a definition of the word miracle as I tend to think that case falls within most peoplss defintion of the word where science and the church meet in agreement.



TwilightPrincess
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17 Dec 2024, 9:28 am

Modern science hasn’t proclaimed anything a “miracle” and they haven’t done so at Lourdes.

International Lourdes Medical Committee “is not entitled to pronounce a cure ‘miraculous’; this can only be done by the Church. The bureau may only pronounce that a cure is ‘medically inexplicable’.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau

Miracle:

Quote:
an unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god because it does not follow the usual laws of nature

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dic ... e_vignette

Scientists say they don’t currently know the cause for something rather than fill in their lack of knowledge with God. That’s not to say that all scientists are free from bias or unscientific/unsubstantiated beliefs, but proclaiming something a miracle by invoking the God of the gaps would be unscientific if it happened.
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God of the gaps (or a divine fallacy) is a logical fallacy that occurs when believers invoke Goddidit (or a variant) in order to account for some natural phenomena that science cannot (at the time of the argument) explain. This concept resembles what systems theorists refer to as an "explanatory principle". "God of the gaps" is a bad argument not only on logical grounds, but on empirical grounds: there is a long history of "gaps" being filled and the remaining gaps for God thus getting smaller and smaller, suggesting "we don't know yet" as an alternative that works better in practice; naturalistic explanations for still-mysterious phenomena always remain possible, especially in the future where research may uncover more information.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps


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RachObi
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17 Dec 2024, 3:33 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Modern science hasn’t proclaimed anything a “miracle” and they haven’t done so at Lourdes.

International Lourdes Medical Committee “is not entitled to pronounce a cure ‘miraculous’; this can only be done by the Church. The bureau may only pronounce that a cure is ‘medically inexplicable’.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau

Miracle:
Quote:
an unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god because it does not follow the usual laws of nature

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dic ... e_vignette

Scientists say they don’t currently know the cause for something rather than fill in their lack of knowledge with God. That’s not to say that all scientists are free from bias or unscientific/unsubstantiated beliefs, but proclaiming something a miracle by invoking the God of the gaps would be unscientific if it happened.

Ok, just so that we are on the same page. This case was declared a miracle by the Catholic Church agreed and by the bureau as medically inexplicable That meets I think the majority of peoples definition of a miracle. You argue she could have got better by another means. Opinion will divide here and that's OK.
This is more on that case
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news ... pernatural

Moving On
Miracles are still happening today and I think it would be a sad world if they didn't.



TwilightPrincess
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17 Dec 2024, 3:37 pm

I agree that the bureau said that this particular case was currently “medically inexplicable” and that the Catholic Church declared it a miracle.

IMO, there’s a lot of wonder in the world whether miracles happen or not. The universe never ceases to fill me with awe even though I don’t have any supernatural beliefs.


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