"I think, therefore I am"

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28 Aug 2007, 1:23 am

I don't "just think" that I have an immortal soul, I know so. Call me dillusional if you like, but in the end we shall see. Time will tell.

skafather84
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28 Aug 2007, 1:38 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

I know so.

prove it.

iamnotaparakeet
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28 Aug 2007, 2:20 am

Just wait

Witt
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28 Aug 2007, 2:47 am

"I think, therefore I am"

...Or "Cogito Ergo Sum" in Latin,formulated by Rene Descartes.
This is also known as 'Carthesian mistake'.

In this sentence Descartes identified himself,with act that he makes (thinking).

But you can't identify something with act that this something creates.

It's like saying 'I'm walking,therefore I am'....'Bird is flying,therefore it is'..and such.

Thinking is just one act of 'self' not 'self' as such.

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calandale
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28 Aug 2007, 4:07 am

Yeah, the sentence presupposes
existence. But, it seems inconcievable
to think that one is not. Still, I believe
that there are important things to be
gained by wandering down that other
path.

The_Chosen_One
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28 Aug 2007, 4:16 am

And Ian Thorpe said 'I'd sink therefore I swam'.

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Flagg
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28 Aug 2007, 4:20 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Just wait

That is not an acceptable test. How do we even measure this "soul"?

gekitsu
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28 Aug 2007, 7:23 am

Witt wrote:

[b]Thinking is just one act of 'self' not 'self' as such.

descartes doesnt say otherwise.
not being, he obviously wouldnt be able to think. but the very act of thinking he has evidence of - even if he errs in his thoughts content.

skafather84
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28 Aug 2007, 10:35 pm

Flagg wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Just wait

That is not an acceptable test. How do we even measure this "soul"?

the only defining matter with a soul, to the best of what i've seen and heard, is the sense of self and personality.

unless you're comatose or a fetus, that's the only defining part of a soul...for the other two, it's just an excuse for control without proof.

The_Chosen_One
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28 Aug 2007, 11:02 pm

To me, a soul is a conscious presence, your id, your thinking being. Now, immortality is a concept where this 'soul' is presumed to 'live' forever. Who's to say it doesn't? Buddhists and some Pagans believe that the soul reincarnates into another being, on it's next step through eternity. Christians believe that it passes to one of the two 'other worlds'. Some Christian groups also acknowledge 'purgatory' as a transcient world. But over-all, whether there is a spiritual soul or just a metaphorical one, nobody can say for sure what will happen after death until it actually happens; and the physical being will cease to function anyway.

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sigholdaccountlost
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01 Sep 2007, 4:43 am

Witt wrote:

or Ice is cold therefore Ice exists.

Okay, so you have something (Ice) and decide it exists to begin with.

You assign an attribute (cold)

and claim that this proves its existence.

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01 Sep 2007, 8:46 am

sigholdaccountlost wrote:

or Ice is cold therefore Ice exists.

Okay, so you have something (Ice) and decide it exists to begin with.

You assign an attribute (cold)

and claim that this proves its existence.

Yes,but this attribute can be assigned to other things as well.
Air or Earth can be cold as well.

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01 Sep 2007, 12:52 pm

Witt wrote:

Please, it is not a mistake at all. Yes, he did identify himself with that and you can do that. If there is an act going on there must be an actor. Thinking is an action, he recognizes that what he has identified as his mind is the thinking object, therefore because there is thinking coming from his mind and thus himself, he must exist as non-existent things are not capable of doing that. The issue would be if cogito ergo sum, was a proof of physical existence instead of psychological, but I don't think that most people take it as such. The issue with the other proofs is that one does not have a priori knowledge of the existence of walking or flying, in order to witness these events you have to witness the walker or the flier thus making the proof useless in those events but if one hears a sound then one would assume that there is a sound maker which is more in line with the claims made.

Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 01 Sep 2007, 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Awesomelyglorious
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01 Sep 2007, 12:56 pm

sigholdaccountlost wrote:

or Ice is cold therefore Ice exists.

Okay, so you have something (Ice) and decide it exists to begin with.

You assign an attribute (cold)

and claim that this proves its existence.

Not really, the only way that would work is to say that the only source of cold is ice, we witness cold so therefore ice exists. It is a much better proof than the doubters claim, the reason that it is not recognized as such is because the entire logical structure isn't being analyzed in the manner it should be. If you dislike the proof then break it down premise by premise, point out the flaws in the premise and let us go from there.

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01 Sep 2007, 3:50 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

sigholdaccountlost wrote:

or Ice is cold therefore Ice exists.

Okay, so you have something (Ice) and decide it exists to begin with.

You assign an attribute (cold)

and claim that this proves its existence.

Ah, that makes sense. I was simply thinking that the way it was worded, it sounded circular reasoning to me.

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01 Sep 2007, 4:00 pm

I thought, therefore I am not

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