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TwilightPrincess
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28 Aug 2024, 4:41 pm

SkinnyElephant wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
I wouldn’t want anything bad to happen to people in prison who abused me. I’d probably feel guilty about it if it did, not that it’d be my fault. I’m just sayin’. Apart from more human concerns, prison reform/more humane practices are more effective.

A somewhat abstract concern that I have: I think that dehumanizing people isn’t good for anyone. IMO, we should be moving towards a more empathetic society.


In the authoritarian society I aim for, the idea would be to scare most would-be criminals out of committing the offense in the first place (therefore they wouldn't get incarcerated in the first place)

The problem is that that doesn’t really work and would cause more problems than it would solve.


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ChicagoLiz
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28 Aug 2024, 4:42 pm

SkinnyElephant wrote:
I suppose there are far left authoritarian governments where criminals are scared into behaving too (China)


China is an authoritarian government, ostensibly Communist to the outside world but in fact it's a very capitalistic economy. There's nothing "leftist" about China, and (by definition) there's nothing "leftist" about authoritarianism.


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28 Aug 2024, 6:48 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
SkinnyElephant wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
I wouldn’t want anything bad to happen to people in prison who abused me. I’d probably feel guilty about it if it did, not that it’d be my fault. I’m just sayin’. Apart from more human concerns, prison reform/more humane practices are more effective.

A somewhat abstract concern that I have: I think that dehumanizing people isn’t good for anyone. IMO, we should be moving towards a more empathetic society.


In the authoritarian society I aim for, the idea would be to scare most would-be criminals out of committing the offense in the first place (therefore they wouldn't get incarcerated in the first place)

The problem is that that doesn’t really work and would cause more problems than it would solve.


There are historical and modern examples of it working.



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28 Aug 2024, 6:49 pm

ChicagoLiz wrote:
SkinnyElephant wrote:
I suppose there are far left authoritarian governments where criminals are scared into behaving too (China)


China is an authoritarian government, ostensibly Communist to the outside world but in fact it's a very capitalistic economy. There's nothing "leftist" about China, and (by definition) there's nothing "leftist" about authoritarianism.


China was only one example.

What about the Soviet Union? Wasn't the Soviet Union simultaneously authoritarian and far left?



TwilightPrincess
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28 Aug 2024, 6:54 pm

SkinnyElephant wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
SkinnyElephant wrote:
In the authoritarian society I aim for, the idea would be to scare most would-be criminals out of committing the offense in the first place (therefore they wouldn't get incarcerated in the first place)

The problem is that that doesn’t really work and would cause more problems than it would solve.


There are historical and modern examples of it working.

As a proponent of humanitarianism, I don’t believe the benefits are worth the costs for what you’re suggesting. I believe it would be better to go with something like a Scandinavian model which has proven to be quite successful as per the evidence I cited earlier in the thread.


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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 28 Aug 2024, 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ChicagoLiz
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28 Aug 2024, 7:11 pm

SkinnyElephant wrote:
China was only one example.

What about the Soviet Union? Wasn't the Soviet Union simultaneously authoritarian and far left?


Draconian authoritarianism is far right, by definition. The Soviets in power might have used terms to suggest they weren't so extreme, but other examples such as the Nazis called themselves Social Democrats and the official name of North Korea is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea show that self-chosen terms are not not really proof.


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Texasmoneyman300
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29 Aug 2024, 9:37 am

SkinnyElephant wrote:
Has anyone else noticed extreme political beliefs (in either direction) are common in the ASD crowd?

If so, what are your theories on why?

On a different online community, a neurotypical claimed the ASD crowd is more prone to brainwash (and that's her explanation of why a lot of us hold extreme political beliefs). I call BS on her explanation.

Here's what I think the explanation is (for why a lot of us hold extreme political beliefs): We're more likely (compared to the general population) to get victimized (because we come across as easy targets).

Victimization doesn't necessarily mean crime victims either (although it certainly includes crime victims).

Here are the ways in which ASD victimization could lead to extreme political beliefs:

If we get victimized by a criminal, we might develop far right authoritarian beliefs (in other words, create a society where criminals are scared into leaving us alone).

If we get treated poorly by a boss because of our ASD mannerisms, we might develop far left pro-worker beliefs. On a related note, ASD adults are far less likely than neurotypical adults to be financially independent (which could lead to us developing the far left belief that the government should help us, or our jobs should pay better, so we can become free of our parents).

If we get treated poorly for our race, we might develop racist beliefs (Racist beliefs can either be far right or far left, depending on your ethnicity, and depending on which ethnicity/ethnicities you're racist against).

If an ASD woman falls victim to sex abuse (which happens to the female ASD population at a higher rate than the general female population), she might develop far left misandrist beliefs.

If an ASD man has bad luck with the ladies (which happens to the male ASD population at a higher rate than the general male population), he might develop far right misogynistic beliefs.

Lastly, one more factor to explain why the ASD crowd is more likely to hold extreme political beliefs: Even though neurotypicals can get victimized too, ASD makes us hyper-focus on one thing. So if we get victimized, we're more likely to make it our lifelong mission to correct the injustice (whereas a neurotypical is more likely to brush it off and move on if victimized)

I think a big reason is because a lot of us on the spectrum think in a very black-white way (myself included).I hate to think we are at the point where its extreme to think everyone who works full-time deserves a living wage.



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29 Aug 2024, 9:41 am

SkinnyElephant wrote:
Has anyone else noticed extreme political beliefs (in either direction) are common in the ASD crowd?

If so, what are your theories on why?

On a different online community, a neurotypical claimed the ASD crowd is more prone to brainwash (and that's her explanation of why a lot of us hold extreme political beliefs). I call BS on her explanation.

Here's what I think the explanation is (for why a lot of us hold extreme political beliefs): We're more likely (compared to the general population) to get victimized (because we come across as easy targets).

Victimization doesn't necessarily mean crime victims either (although it certainly includes crime victims).

Here are the ways in which ASD victimization could lead to extreme political beliefs:

If we get victimized by a criminal, we might develop far right authoritarian beliefs (in other words, create a society where criminals are scared into leaving us alone).

If we get treated poorly by a boss because of our ASD mannerisms, we might develop far left pro-worker beliefs. On a related note, ASD adults are far less likely than neurotypical adults to be financially independent (which could lead to us developing the far left belief that the government should help us, or our jobs should pay better, so we can become free of our parents).

If we get treated poorly for our race, we might develop racist beliefs (Racist beliefs can either be far right or far left, depending on your ethnicity, and depending on which ethnicity/ethnicities you're racist against).

If an ASD woman falls victim to sex abuse (which happens to the female ASD population at a higher rate than the general female population), she might develop far left misandrist beliefs.

If an ASD man has bad luck with the ladies (which happens to the male ASD population at a higher rate than the general male population), he might develop far right misogynistic beliefs.

Lastly, one more factor to explain why the ASD crowd is more likely to hold extreme political beliefs: Even though neurotypicals can get victimized too, ASD makes us hyper-focus on one thing. So if we get victimized, we're more likely to make it our lifelong mission to correct the injustice (whereas a neurotypical is more likely to brush it off and move on if victimized)


I think you're vastly oversimplifying why people develop the views they develop, as though one negative experience is all it takes to develop an ideological stance.


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SkinnyElephant
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29 Aug 2024, 11:43 am

Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
SkinnyElephant wrote:
Has anyone else noticed extreme political beliefs (in either direction) are common in the ASD crowd?

If so, what are your theories on why?

On a different online community, a neurotypical claimed the ASD crowd is more prone to brainwash (and that's her explanation of why a lot of us hold extreme political beliefs). I call BS on her explanation.

Here's what I think the explanation is (for why a lot of us hold extreme political beliefs): We're more likely (compared to the general population) to get victimized (because we come across as easy targets).

Victimization doesn't necessarily mean crime victims either (although it certainly includes crime victims).

Here are the ways in which ASD victimization could lead to extreme political beliefs:

If we get victimized by a criminal, we might develop far right authoritarian beliefs (in other words, create a society where criminals are scared into leaving us alone).

If we get treated poorly by a boss because of our ASD mannerisms, we might develop far left pro-worker beliefs. On a related note, ASD adults are far less likely than neurotypical adults to be financially independent (which could lead to us developing the far left belief that the government should help us, or our jobs should pay better, so we can become free of our parents).

If we get treated poorly for our race, we might develop racist beliefs (Racist beliefs can either be far right or far left, depending on your ethnicity, and depending on which ethnicity/ethnicities you're racist against).

If an ASD woman falls victim to sex abuse (which happens to the female ASD population at a higher rate than the general female population), she might develop far left misandrist beliefs.

If an ASD man has bad luck with the ladies (which happens to the male ASD population at a higher rate than the general male population), he might develop far right misogynistic beliefs.

Lastly, one more factor to explain why the ASD crowd is more likely to hold extreme political beliefs: Even though neurotypicals can get victimized too, ASD makes us hyper-focus on one thing. So if we get victimized, we're more likely to make it our lifelong mission to correct the injustice (whereas a neurotypical is more likely to brush it off and move on if victimized)

I think a big reason is because a lot of us on the spectrum think in a very black-white way (myself included).I hate to think we are at the point where its extreme to think everyone who works full-time deserves a living wage.


As I mentioned on a previous post, I hold a mix of far right and far left stances.

You're correct; it shouldn't get viewed as extreme to think everyone working full time deserves a living wage. Unfortunately, however, the idea that we deserve a living wage is viewed as far left.



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29 Aug 2024, 11:50 am

funeralxempire wrote:
SkinnyElephant wrote:
Has anyone else noticed extreme political beliefs (in either direction) are common in the ASD crowd?

If so, what are your theories on why?

On a different online community, a neurotypical claimed the ASD crowd is more prone to brainwash (and that's her explanation of why a lot of us hold extreme political beliefs). I call BS on her explanation.

Here's what I think the explanation is (for why a lot of us hold extreme political beliefs): We're more likely (compared to the general population) to get victimized (because we come across as easy targets).

Victimization doesn't necessarily mean crime victims either (although it certainly includes crime victims).

Here are the ways in which ASD victimization could lead to extreme political beliefs:

If we get victimized by a criminal, we might develop far right authoritarian beliefs (in other words, create a society where criminals are scared into leaving us alone).

If we get treated poorly by a boss because of our ASD mannerisms, we might develop far left pro-worker beliefs. On a related note, ASD adults are far less likely than neurotypical adults to be financially independent (which could lead to us developing the far left belief that the government should help us, or our jobs should pay better, so we can become free of our parents).

If we get treated poorly for our race, we might develop racist beliefs (Racist beliefs can either be far right or far left, depending on your ethnicity, and depending on which ethnicity/ethnicities you're racist against).

If an ASD woman falls victim to sex abuse (which happens to the female ASD population at a higher rate than the general female population), she might develop far left misandrist beliefs.

If an ASD man has bad luck with the ladies (which happens to the male ASD population at a higher rate than the general male population), he might develop far right misogynistic beliefs.

Lastly, one more factor to explain why the ASD crowd is more likely to hold extreme political beliefs: Even though neurotypicals can get victimized too, ASD makes us hyper-focus on one thing. So if we get victimized, we're more likely to make it our lifelong mission to correct the injustice (whereas a neurotypical is more likely to brush it off and move on if victimized)


I think you're vastly oversimplifying why people develop the views they develop, as though one negative experience is all it takes to develop an ideological stance.


Not necessarily one negative experience. But if it happens enough times, it can shape your beliefs.

I used to hold a far left stance on criminals.

Then I moved to a big city in my mid 20s. In a span of less than one year, I ended up in positions where I could have died 4 times.

I now hold a far right stance on criminals (and as I said earlier on the thread, my post would get deleted if I elaborated on what exactly I think certain criminals deserve).

In retrospect, the only reason I had a bleeding heart stance on criminals in my youth was because (before my mid 20s) I always lived in places with hardly any crime. It's easy to "like" criminals when you don't come into contact with any.



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29 Aug 2024, 11:54 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
As a proponent of humanitarianism, I don’t believe the benefits are worth the costs for what you’re suggesting. I believe it would be better to go with something like a Scandinavian model which has proven to be quite successful as per the evidence I cited earlier in the thread.


I have rebuttals of why the Norwegian model works for Norway (but wouldn't work for us).

Unfortunately, my post would get removed if I verbalized my rebuttals.



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29 Aug 2024, 11:58 am

SkinnyElephant wrote:
In retrospect, the only reason I had a bleeding heart stance on criminals in my youth was because (before my mid 20s) I always lived in places with hardly any crime. It's easy to "like" criminals when you don't come into contact with any.

Other people who’ve been victims of various crimes or long term abuse are still horrified at the thought of truly awful people suffering. Feeling empathy doesn’t necessarily mean that you “like” someone. IMO, it’s more about basic humanity.

People’s experiences CAN shape their stances on things, but I think there’s a lot more to it than just that. Stuff like education - formal and informal, interests, the political beliefs of one’s family or community, personality, religion, etc. often plays some role whether it’s obvious or not.


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29 Aug 2024, 12:19 pm

SkinnyElephant wrote:
Unfortunately, my post would get removed if I verbalized my rebuttals.


Does it involve invoking ethnic homogeneity? :scratch:


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29 Aug 2024, 1:41 pm

SkinnyElephant wrote:
In the authoritarian society I aim for, the idea would be to scare most would-be criminals out of committing the offense in the first place (therefore they wouldn't get incarcerated in the first place)


I highly doubt you can scare criminals out of committing crimes in the first, second or any place. It doesn't work that way.


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29 Aug 2024, 1:58 pm

BillyTree wrote:
SkinnyElephant wrote:
In the authoritarian society I aim for, the idea would be to scare most would-be criminals out of committing the offense in the first place (therefore they wouldn't get incarcerated in the first place)


I highly doubt you can scare criminals out of committing crimes in the first, second or any place. It doesn't work that way.


As a former boss of mine said "In countries where you get your hand cut off for shoplifting, the shoplifting rate is probably pretty low"



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29 Aug 2024, 2:58 pm

SkinnyElephant wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
SkinnyElephant wrote:
In the authoritarian society I aim for, the idea would be to scare most would-be criminals out of committing the offense in the first place (therefore they wouldn't get incarcerated in the first place)


I highly doubt you can scare criminals out of committing crimes in the first, second or any place. It doesn't work that way.


As a former boss of mine said "In countries where you get your hand cut off for shoplifting, the shoplifting rate is probably pretty low"


That sounds like a cliché. It feels like it should be true, but a high degree of truthiness doesn't make it true.

Evidence please?

SkinnyElephant wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I think you're vastly oversimplifying why people develop the views they develop, as though one negative experience is all it takes to develop an ideological stance.


Not necessarily one negative experience. But if it happens enough times, it can shape your beliefs.

I used to hold a far left stance on criminals.

Then I moved to a big city in my mid 20s. In a span of less than one year, I ended up in positions where I could have died 4 times.

I now hold a far right stance on criminals (and as I said earlier on the thread, my post would get deleted if I elaborated on what exactly I think certain criminals deserve).

In retrospect, the only reason I had a bleeding heart stance on criminals in my youth was because (before my mid 20s) I always lived in places with hardly any crime. It's easy to "like" criminals when you don't come into contact with any.


You're right that experiences shape beliefs, but still oversimplifying how they do.

A victim of crime might swing towards wanting to brutalize criminals, or they might swing towards wanting to actually reduce crime.

Someone might be persuaded that brutal tactics will work to minimize crime or they might feel compelled to learn about what drives crime rates, or at least crime of the sort they were subjected to and seek solutions based on addressing the root causes.

Different people process their experiences differently; some people are more emotionally guided, others are more guided by logic and reason. People who are guided more by emotion are likely to be drawn towards 'bleeding heart' stances for emotional reasons and also be driven from them by emotional reasons, fleeing to what feels emotionally satisfying after being mugged by reality as the cliché puts it.

Not everyone who holds what you describe as bleeding heart stances is drawn to them out of a need for emotional satisfaction though. If people hold those positions primarily out of a belief that evidence backs a less vindictive approach as being more effective they're not going to immediately ignore all rational arguments for their previous stance because they were scared.

I think if anything you're on to something about emotionally driven people and the stances they identify with and what motivates them towards those stances/what motivates them to changes stances. Like the cliché about conservatives only learn empathy when an issue involves someone they personally know, or how bleeding heart liberals end up as tough-on-crime conservatives after being mugged by reality.

Note that I'm not insisting that I'm driven exclusively by logic. I'm also not suggesting any inherent superiority to being logically driven vs. emotionally driven. I'd also recognize that many people who insist they're only motivated by logic are also just unaware of their own alexithymia, which can occasionally be seen in communities like ours.


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You can ignore politics, but politics will NEVER ignore you.