Anti progressive Jews pile on cancelled progressive Jew

Page 2 of 2 [ 24 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,204
Location: New York City (Queens)

02 Sep 2024, 9:12 pm

MaxE wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Agreed. Zionists are not a monolith. There have long been, for example, left-leaning Zionists who support the two-state solution.

I have no problem with the concept of the 2-state solution. However it's a non-starter for Palestinians so what's the point of bringing it up?

Just agreeing with you that "supporting Israel doesn't necessarily equate with supporting Netanyahu" and giving an example.

At this point, however, I don't think the 2-state solution can possibly work, due to all the many Israeli Jewish settlers in both the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and due to the military disadvantage, to Israel, of giving up the West Bank highlands. As I've said elsewhere (see this thread and this thread, for example), it seems to me that the only possible longterm solution is a single bi-national state, with equal rights for all and adequate constitutional protections for both groups, although that obviously can't happen immediately.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
- My Twitter / "X" (new as of 2021)


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,886
Location: Long Island, New York

03 Sep 2024, 1:28 am

MaxE wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Agreed. Zionists are not a monolith. There have long been, for example, left-leaning Zionists who support the two-state solution.

I have no problem with the concept of the 2-state solution. However it's a non-starter for Palestinians so what's the point of bringing it up?

It’s a non-starter for Israeli Jews as well as a bi national state. Right wing Israelis want to move the Palestinians away somewhere or kill them all. The rest of the Israelis have no clue what to do long term. The mass pro deal demonstrations have nothing to do with term solutions. The mentality is the war is a lost cause especially under the current government as Hamas will survive. The idea is make a deal to get whatever hostages can be gotten home, then try and get rid of Netanyahu.

As far as Palestinian attitudes it is hard to say because they are living under authoritarian regimes.


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,801
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

03 Sep 2024, 7:04 am

Regarding the "2 state solution". Although I can't cite any references at the moment, I have previously read about the textbooks used in West Bank and (presumably Gaza) schools in which pupils are taught that the only acceptable future for the Palestinian people is one in which the entirety of what is usually recognized as Palestine is returned to the Palestinian people. Whether there would be a place in such a future for Jews is not clear. The absolute impossibility of Palestinians, as a people, tolerating any sort of Jewish state recognized by treaty is why the Camp David talks failed.

Although I am at a loss to cite any sources, it has always been my impression that more "liberal" Israelis e.g. members of Shalom Akhshav favored some sort of 2-state solution, the problem being that those people were probably delusional about how Palestinians in exile would all be accommodated on their return, but with half or less the territory from which they were exiled. But the short answer, as I see it, would be that some Israelis at least would theoretically give up some land for peace, but Palestinians (not counting a few outliers) would never accept anything less than a "from the river to the sea" vision of a future sovereign Palestine.

Luckily for you, I have neither the time nor the inclination to do the research I would need to prove any of this, so I suppose you win your argument by default.

I will say that I don't think the average Israeli has any sort of grand plan in mind regarding the future of Palestinians. In the past, the sort of people that seize land on the West Bank to establish settlements have had an ideology that says all non-Jews must be transferred out, but my impression is that the average Israeli just wants to get on with his life, but has never been totally cool with the fact that people living a few kilometers away from him think it perfectly OK to shoot missiles at his neighborhood.


_________________
My WP story


TwilightPrincess
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 27,877
Location: Hell

03 Sep 2024, 7:25 am

From 2021:

Quote:
In the current survey, only 43% of Palestinians and 42% of Israeli Jews support the concept of the two-state solution; 56% of Palestinians and 46% of Israeli Jews are opposed. Two years ago, 43% on each side supported this solution. In all cases, only the general principle was provided. Among Israeli Arabs, support drops considerably from 82% two years ago to 59%, bringing the total Israeli average to 44%. Among Jews, support for the two-state principle has seen an incremental but steady decline since June 2016, when it stood at 53%. Among Palestinians support has varied: it fell from June to December 2016, when 44% supported the basic two-state solution in principle, rose to 52% in June 2017, then declined once again to 46% and continued to decline in July 2018 and in the current poll.

https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/823

Palestinian public opinion in 2007:

Image

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/pa ... srael-2007

According to Gallup polls, 61% of Israelis supported a 2 state solution in 2012.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/547760/lif ... harts.aspx

From Pew:

Image
Image

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024 ... f-the-war/



Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,204
Location: New York City (Queens)

03 Sep 2024, 12:59 pm

MaxE wrote:
The absolute impossibility of Palestinians, as a people, tolerating any sort of Jewish state recognized by treaty is why the Camp David talks failed.

Actually, the main reason why the Camp David talks failed was Israeli intransigence, following the Israeli election of a Likud government in 1977. See Camp David Accords and the Arab-Israeli Peace Process (on the website of the US State Department).

Subsequently, in the Oslo Accords (same website):

Quote:
Israel accepted the PLO as the representative of the Palestinians, and the PLO renounced terrorism and recognized Israel’s right to exist in peace.

So, no, it wasn't "absolutely impossible" for the Palestinians to tolerate any sort of Jewish state recognized by treaty.

But then, what made the Oslo Accord fall apart was the ongoing Israeli Jewish settlements -- and evictions of Palestinians -- in Area C of the West Bank and in East Jerusalem. Naturally, Palestinians don't like living under constant threat of eviction from who knows where next.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
- My Twitter / "X" (new as of 2021)


Last edited by Mona Pereth on 03 Sep 2024, 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,801
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

03 Sep 2024, 1:14 pm

Sorry, I was confusing Oslo with Camp David. I meant Oslo.


_________________
My WP story


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,204
Location: New York City (Queens)

03 Sep 2024, 1:40 pm

MaxE wrote:
Sorry, I was confusing Oslo with Camp David. I meant Oslo.

But what you said about it was directly contrary to what actually happened at Oslo, as I explained in my message above.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
- My Twitter / "X" (new as of 2021)


MaxE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,801
Location: Mid-Atlantic US

05 Sep 2024, 6:42 am

OK this is how I remember the situation. My memory may be faulty.

At one point during the Oslo process, Abu Amar (Yasser Arafat) and Bill Clinton decided to meet in private, with just a few trusted aides, to hammer out a peace proposal. I recall this as having taken place at Camp David, hence the confusion. The actual Camp David agreement involving Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat rarely crosses my mind.

The way I remember it, Clinton and Arafat worked out some sort of blueprint, obviously a 2 state solution. When Arafat took that back to his governing council, or whoever it was he had to sell it to back home in Ramallah, it was rejected because they could never agree to a treaty that officially recognized a Jewish state.

Perhaps a false memory, but that's how I remember it.


_________________
My WP story